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Accueil >> Forum >> What happen to those wings. Forum Aviation civile
What happen to those wings.
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Message de flylinefrontier - Envoyé le 04 Nov 19:50 |
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I always my self and my friends, how do the winglets works to increase the range. Like the 737, Westjet, said it only help 16% of the fuel. Like the 757, they could increase the range to a long flight from U.S. To Europen or Asia... My questions is how do they work, my friends said change the wing fuel tank , or some say Change the engine... ?
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Message de Amadeo - Envoyé le 05 Nov 4:17 |
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Winglets help with aerodynamics (not fueltanks or engines). They decrease drag and therefore fuel consumption and therefore increase range and/ or payload.
Here is how it works: Below the wing is a high pressure area and above the wing is a low pressure area. The air wants to even out that pressure differential. Around the wingtip some of the air circulates upward towards the top of the wing creating a vortex. The end of the wing is therefore not producing much lift. The winglet inerrupts this vortex which reduces drag and increases the ammount of productive area on the wing.
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Message de FLX - Envoyé le 05 Nov 8:34 |
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Amadeo:
Although I already knew how winglets dissipate vortex around wingtips and reduce drag decades ago, your explanation is the best that I hv ever read - clear & neat.
flylinefrontier:
If Westjet said winglets alone can improve fuel economy by 16% per flight or on an annual basis for their 737NGs, something must be terribly wrong with the basic design of the 737NG wings or WestJet is lying. Would U mind to share fm exactly what source of Westjet did U get the 16% figure re winglets?
Fm what I know, any fuel efficiency gain of that magnitude is massive and takes DECADES of development via not one but A COMBINATION OF MAJOR TECH BREAKTHROUGHS to achieve. 787 is just 20% more efficient than 767 but they're at least 28 yrs apart in terms of tech and rely on major breakthroughs in 1) system, 2) engine and 3) airframe structure. Airbuses already hv winglets not long after the 767 was born. If winglets alone really can offer about 16% improvement to a 767(let's assume similar to a 737NG), why Boeing went to all the troubles in developing the 787 just to gain 4% more? Is Boeing stupid or something?
I hv never heard of fuel efficiency gain of more than 6% by adding any type of winglets. Typically, the gain is about 3.5-4.5%.
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Message de flylinefrontier - Envoyé le 06 Nov 2:12 |
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I don't know, but is the airbus 320 family's winglet works? Because airbus have brought winglets from Boeing, they tried to test it, but nothin had report in sites. Do airbus winglets going to change? Back in 2005 or 2004, Jetblue had ordered a different winglets, where is it now?
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Message de Spot planes - Envoyé le 07 Nov 5:29 |
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Airbus only use blended winglets on A330. All others they use the wing fence. The idea of the wing fence is the same as winglet. It is to smooth out the air flow from the bottom of the wing out the wing tip reducing drag and increase lift.
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Message de FLX - Envoyé le 07 Nov 6:10 |
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flylinefrontier:
Sorry, I don't understand your questions and confused about your statements. What do U mean U don't know and what does my question has anything to do with the winglets on 320? I'm purely focusing on efficiency gain of the same aircraft design(Doesn't matter whether it's 737NG or 320) before and after installation of winglets.
What do U mean Airbus brought winglets fm Boeing and fm what info source hv U learnt about it if there's no report in sites? Why would Airbus do that anyway? It'll be hard to believe Airbus cannot find a manufacturer to design & produce any type of winglets that are custom built for Airbus products but hv to settle for something originally built for Boeing products. Fyi, neither Airbus nor Boeing design/manufacture winglets for 320 or 737NG families by themselves. Their OEM contractor(Independently fm Boeing or Airbus) partners do and any airline can buy & retro-fit winglets to their 320s or 737NGs directly fm these partners without involving Boeing nor Airbus at all. In the case of winglets for 737NG, Boeing's partner is Aviation Partners, Inc. (API) who also owned the design patent, not Boeing.
If the winglets on the 320 family don't work, why are they there? For fun+good looks? Winglets hv many diff types and the ones on 320 are the smaller type known as wingtip fences. Airbus did tested larger types such as blended winglets(Similar to the ones on 737NGs) before and found the net efficiency gains(Result of complex calculations considering drag, weight, hardware cost, etc.) are minimal:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2006/10/10/209738/airbus-rethinks-plan-to-put-winglets-on-a320.html
That's why wingtip fences are still standard equipement on 320 family today. BTW, I hv never seen any other type of winglets installed on any production version of the 320 family.
I didn't know JetBlue had ever ordered winglets for their 320 family that are diff fm the standard equipement wingtip fences. Would U mind to share your source of your info?
Again, can U share your info source re WestJet's claim of the 16% efficiency gain fm winglets on 737NGs. Approx 4% fuel efficiency gain is what I've learnt fm Boeing's official website:
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_17/winglet_story.html
If your claims can be substantiated, I can really learn something new & real here. Pls help.
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Message de flylinefrontier - Envoyé le 08 Nov 23:35 |
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Sorry, My questions is:
1. Right now, as you all know, the airbus's 320, 319, 318 and 320. Had a small winglet. So as the A300 and A310. Do they actually work?
2. I also saw a picture of an Testing A320 F-WWBA from Airbus Industrie using 2 different winglets. One of them were brought from the boeing. But then today 2007, there is no news about those testing, anyone?
Pictures:
http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=F-WWBA&distinct_entry=true
Statment:
1. I saw once there is a Jetblue A320 using a different winglet. But unfortually, they put the normal one back on after a mouth delievery. Try to find in airliners.net database, you can see more.
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Message de Amadeo - Envoyé le 08 Nov 0:10 |
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Spot Planes:
The A330 and A340 winglets are not blended, they are at obtuse angles to the rest of the wing and are probably classified as, just simply, winglets.
FLX:
I believe that Aviation Partners Inc. has been absorbed into Boeing and is now Aviation Partners Boeing.
flylinefrontier:
The wingtip fences do work, and they work in the same way as the blended winglets. The A320-100 series did not have them and it was one of the improvements made to the -200 series. The issue is just that they do not work as well as blended winglets. I am not that well versed in fluid dynamics, but it seems to me that the wingtip fences would incurr proximity drag that the blended winglets would not.
JetBlue and Airbus were interested in improving the economics of the A320, so they tested blended winglets on the aircraft you are talking about. The added weight put too much stress on the wing and the gain in efficiency was not much, so the project did not go through.
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Message de FLX - Envoyé le 08 Nov 9:23 |
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Message de Amadeo - Envoyé le 08 Nov 16:44 |
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16% does sound outrageus. Could it be that they shaved 16% of off overall fuel consumption across the whole fleet which would include replacing the 732s with 737NGs as well as by adding winglets to -NG aircraft? --Or-- 16% off fuel costs which would have many economic factors? --The last theroy I will put out is that they had a 6% improvement (still slightly more than usual,but completely possible because they fly long routes for the 737), and it was misread as 16%. Many other possibilites too.
Thanks for the API info. FLX
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Message de FLX - Envoyé le 09 Nov 8:59 |
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Amadeo:
U're welcome. I think API is doing pretty well these days...not bad for a small R&D outfit founded by a bunch of retired Boeing and Lockheed engineers.
Yeah, I guess someone misread certain info and interpret/extrapolate them in his/her own way and then make sensational claims without citing any references.
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