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WHO WILL BUY BMI

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captain bill

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 04 Nov 16:54

LUFTHANSA who now own 100% of BMI have not taken long to realise they have spent a lot of money for what and want to sell them off. I know three UK airlines have signed letters of confideciality to see the BMI accounts. These are B.A. , FlyBE and Virgin but I have also been told that there are some European airlines also interested. Anyone know who they are ?

I was surprised that B.A. were interested although I can see why but thought that due to their own financial situation might just give this one a miss.

FlyBE well I just feel that they are growing too quickly for their own good and by coming into LHR would if no deal was done with B.A. > their good friends and investors< would put them into direct competition with them.

Virgin This would open things up and give B.A. some real competition on their Domestics in particular. This could be one reason B.A. wants BMI so they can once again have a monopolly on the LHR to ABZ, EDI, GLA, MAN & NCL routes which still do generate good pax numbers and revenue.

Information or thought guys and dolls would be nice.

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Mabel

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 05 Nov 23:22

My bets would be on Virgin. Giving Virgin a domestic/continental operation to compete with BA is something Sir Richard would be foolish to pass up. BA seems to have cash flow issues at present and FlyBE is too small - I don't see how they could come up with the money.


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speedbird9468

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 05 Nov 0:31

Yes I'd go for Virgin. They could quite easliy link up their long haulers at lets ay LHR to the domestic market to Scotland MAN etc etc.


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captain bill

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 06 Nov 16:36

Yes I would go for Virgine myself but B.A. do some daft things when you least expect it and FlyBE have their eye set on great things so it will be interesting.

FlyBE are more interested in BMI regional as this sits better with what they now have so there could be a carve up between B.A. and FlyBE.

I have heard (and don't laugh guys) that a British bank are interested and would keep the name BMI. Also our Arab friends are now have signed a letter of confidenciality but I don't know whither an airline, bank or what.


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captain bill

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 06 Nov 18:37

Virgin with an e

My spulling is gotting worser.


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Embraer

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 06 Nov 19:48

I agree, Virgin would be the best bet! But saying that B.A share's went up 12.5p today ! watch this space ;-)


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speedbird9468

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 07 Nov 0:49

My Inglesh is gettin worster and im a blummin inglesh teacher


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captain bill

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 09 Nov 8:55

Two Mid-Eastern airlines and one Arab bank have come in showing interest. Why is what first comes to mind would anyone from the East want with BMI.

O yes slots at LHR ???


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Mabel

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 09 Nov 17:05

They want more ways to infiltrate and take over Western civilization.


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captain bill

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 14 Nov 8:07

FlyBE and BA seem to be the favourites to take over BMI. They will carve it up between them with BA taking on the domestic routes to EDI, GLA and MAN along with some of the European routs and FlyBE taking on the lower capacity domestics to ABZ, BHD and Europe.

Fly BE will also take over BMI Regional and as BMI still have the slots and service rights to EMA, LBA, MME these routes could come back into play along with INV which BE serve from LGW. All these services could be operated by 400Q or E-jets. Some BA European routes would be transferred to FlyBE, again low capacity routes, which again 400Q or E-jets would fly.

BA may also wish to increase it's 15% holding in BE to around 25% to 30% and cement further their relationship so if and it could be a BIG IF this all happens and the BA / BE carve up takes place along with the BA merger with Iberia and a strong relationship with AA, BA will be in a much better operating and financial situation as the years progress.

This is not a done deal by any manner as Virgin is indeed giving them a run for their money but at the end of the day it is money that matters as LH need to get top £/$ for BMI having just paid Sir Mike Bishop £552 million for his share and whatever else they paid SAS for their share.


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captain bill

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 26 Nov 8:46

600 staff must go and a number of routes will be cut as BMI will not survive the winter unless such measures are taken. I would assume that this news just knocked a few million £ off the value of the company.


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captain bill

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 26 Nov 8:56

Routes just been announced that will go are:

LHR TO ------

AMSTERDAM
ALEPPO
BRUSSELS (transferred to Brussels Airlines)
KIEV
TEL-AVIV


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speedbird9468

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 26 Nov 15:35

Blimey. What about their A330's


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captain bill

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 26 Nov 16:15

I think I'm right in saying that they are starting to lease them out. I will check this out.


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speedbird9468

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 26 Nov 22:02

I would imagine that they woud keep at least 1


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Mabel

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 28 Nov 17:42

Don't they still use the 332s on flights to Las Vegas and a few islands in the Caribbean?


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captain bill

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 28 Nov 20:18

Yes but two were employed on their Tel-Aviv routes so they may decide to let these out.


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speedbird9468

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 29 Nov 3:31

Use the A321 for Tel-Aviv if the yields are high


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SJR

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 29 Nov 15:01

I still say Virgin will take them because i think if BA tries to takeover Bmi they will find that they are not allowed due to it turning Heathrow into a monopoly for them. Especially if there merger with Iberia goes through. Saying that i can see Virgin not wanting the regional routes so Flybe or another carrier may therefore benefit. They also wont be interested in Bmi Baby so i can see Easyjet, Jet 2 and Ryanair all wanting to take over that. My best fit for Baby is Jet 2 as i have long said because they operate 733's already and are looking to expand to new bases such as BHX and EMA where Bmi Baby is strong. They would also i think im right in saying get bigger presence at Manchester, Edinburgh and Belfast as well as getting a new base at Cardiff. It all comes down to whether they have the money to make that move. Regional i think Flybe will takeover and mainline Bmi is almost a dead certainty to me for Virgin.


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ChieftainStuart

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 18 Dec 11:24

Having read all the above with interest this will mean that Star Alliance customers/members will have no onward connections to any destinations in the United Kingdom.

With Star moving into Terminal 1 at Heathrow, under the direction on BMI, who will handle the Star's airlines administration that use Heathrow.
Then their are the other Star connections to be considered at GLA, MAN, EDI.

If Flybe were to buy BMI.
Would they then be a candidate to join Star.

If BA purchase BMI, then One World would have the monopoly in the UK.

I Virgin utilise their option, which alliance would benefit.

As a non-UK resident who travels regularly to the UK and not involved with One World, this is not an ideal situation.

BMI is a valid member, and necessary member, of Star Alliance for the UK.


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captain bill

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 27 Dec 10:32

I get your point ChieftainStuart re the Alliiances and as you say it could leave a void in the UK domastic market but in these days of uncertainty anything could happen.


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FLX

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 28 Dec 9:51

captain bill:
Absolutely agree with U. Sounds to me ChieftainStuart is a loyalist of BMI+*A(Star Alliance airlines) and very very focused on traveling to/fm/via LHR.

1. Although less ideal, *A customers wish may use ground transport for UK domestic pts nearby LHR or skip LHR altogether for other further pts by connecting on LH via the far superior FRA hub(A smarter choice IMHO). The days of LHR as the only viable connecting hub for EU(Including UK domestics) were long gone......

2. I'm pretty sure there're plenty of 3rd-party agencies/service providers that can replace BMI on the ground re other *A airlines that serve LHR.

3. LH already operates MAN and EDI @ least 3Xs a day and can easily add a GLA-FRA daily to compensate if BMI leaves *A.

4. Flybe is a LCC so extremely unusual(i.e. Contradicts the LCC biz model) to ever join any global alliance. If Flybe were to join any, I'd imagine OW(OneWorld) will be on the top of its list for various reasons but that's another topic.

5. Correct me if I'm wrong but last time I check, BA and BMI are NOT the only carriers that do UK domestics, let alone EU-wide fm UK. EasyJet alone serves @ least 5 UK pts fm the London area......personally, I think the term monoploy should be used with discretion...monopoly in LHR doesn't=monopoly in the UK.

6. NO alliance will benefit if VS has significant equity stake in BMI. Again, as a complete outsider of EU+UK, I understand VS isn't aligned with any global alliances last time I check.

7. It may not be an ideal situation for a non-UK resident stuck with *A and connection @ LHR. UK pts are MORE THAN well-served by CO, a *A carrier, @ EWR fm the west(e.g. N.America) and EWR is an excellent hub @ least in terms of destination choices in the entire W.hemisphere. UK pts are also EXCEEDINGLY well-served by KL @ AMS fm the east+south(e.g. Africa, Asia-Pcf) and AMS is an even better hub than EWR or the terminally congested LHR. Just count how many UK dots are sevred by CO or KL on their route maps and U may wonder about a rethink of the definition of a <UK carrier>.....

8. Necessary for *A may be but definitely not a must for travellers(Except die-hard *A+LHR fans) bound to/fm UK.

My pt is, if BMI is so necessary+valuable to *A, why would LH put it up for sale after investing so much? LH is no dumb airline and may be in the grand scheme of things particularly the mkt uncertainty, the biz case for keeping BMI in *A is no longer VALID and the value generated by BMI to *A can be replicated via other much more economic means.


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captain bill

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 28 Dec 11:38

Interesting points you rais FLX and I agree that LHR is not the be all and end all for UK travelers going to Europe and beyond. I never thought I would say this but the LCCs have done a great job in making people think about air travel and from the UK more people travel than everbefore. Lots of people HATE the LCC model and are looking for that little bit more in terms of service when they spend their hard earned money and this is where some of the main line carriers are scoring by offering services along with good fare structure from regional airports in the UK to Europe and beyond.

Air France. KLM, Lufthansa, Aer Lingus, SAS, Finnair and many othere now offer good services to many destinations in Europe, Emirates offer great services for travelers to Mid / Far East, India, Australia ect and a number of US and Canadian companies all fly from many UK airports to the US and Canada so the Feeder service to LHR / LGW is not so important these days. There is still a large number of people need the ABZ, INV, EDI, GLA, NCL, MAN, BFS service to LHR and LGW for business purposes and as these markets are good paying routes BA and A.N. Other or Others will still fly them.

News of this purchase is expected within the first quarter of 2010 so we should not have long to wait to see what happens.


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captain bill

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 01 Jan 5:22

As no buyer has been found for BMI with the only two buyers who are still showing interest (BA and Virgin) not prepared to pay what LH think it is worth there seems to be two options left to LH.

1) Sell off some of the more lucrative routes to airlines such as BA for LHR routes and FlyBE for regional and what LHR slots that are left sell to other interested airlines.

or

2) Work hard in developing the company by dropping certain routes and adding a few more profitable ones but at the same time making the company leaner and more profitable and then in late 2011 offer the company for sale OR if by that time the recovery is such that BMI are indeed a profitable company, hang on to it and reap the rewards.


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captain bill

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 21 Jan 22:16

Point number 2 is the way forward for BMI. They have dropped business class on all domestic and European routes and are offering what is almost like a LCC type service but with a smile. They still allocate seats and as yet you dont pay for luggage but I recon that just might come on certain routes. A number of aircraft will go some have gone and they have defferred delivery on new 320s and 321s. There is also talk that some of the 319s will replace LH 735s on leaner LHR - German routes.


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SJR

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 22 Jan 22:17

Virgin and British Airways are testing Lufthansa in my honest opinion. There trying to get a bargain of a carrier that really want shut of Bmi. Fact is though Lufthansa is one of the big boys and will not mess about when the price is put on the table they mean that price. Still for me i suspect if BA puts a offer in Virgin will quickly counter and beat BA to the sale. Virgin has a lot more to lose by letting another carrier get hold of Bmi and i suspect they may also do a deal with Lufthansa about joining the SA. I suspect Virgin wont want anything more than Bmi's LHR operations though so Baby and Regional would still be up for grabs.


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FLX

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 23 Jan 10:43

I could be wrong about this but I hv long suspected that out of all 3 global alliances, VS tends to hv much closer ties to/coop with *A or at least many *A members than OW and ST. If all things being nearly equal(Particularly the financial aspect re a Bmi sale), I can see LH prefers to sell Bmi to VS rather than BA......prehaps the old saying applies here: the enemy of my enemy is my friend?

Now I'm not suggesting VS will join *A thur LH in the foreseeable future. VS seems to cherish its non-aligned status and prefer the full flex of being able to pick & choose partners fm whatever alliances. I mean seriously, if VS wish to join a global alliance as part of its strategy, they could hv done it long time ago and it's easy to imagine *A and ST would welcome VS with wide open arms anytime(OW will be a diff story due to BA). VS' strategy(As long as Branson is around...) is NOT to join any alliances-further extrapolation: Branson's maverick attitude in this industry has something to do with this strategy.

Another radical theory(Pure speculation) is that Virgin Group may be interested to finally invest in the EU LCC mkt and a Bmi purchase will allow them to launch that plan quickly. I know a lot of folks here believe the key reason VS will be interested in Bmi is its LHR ops/slots. I don't doubt that at all but I think there may be other key reasons beyond Bmi's LHR. If we think outside the U.K.+EU mkt, Virgin Group has already got huge LCC investment(Either direct/indirect controlling or significant stakes) in Australia-Pcf(VirginBlue+PacificBlue+VAustralia), U.S.(VirginAmerica) and Asia(AirAsia+AirAsiaX). All are key global air travel geog regions and UK+EU is the only remaining major geog piece still missing in Virgin Group's global portfolio.


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captain bill

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 23 Jan 21:08

I have been looking for a quote I read recently from one of VS senior managers (director status). He said that Europe had enough LCCs and the market was changing as the recession ends people are starting to look for a higher standard of service within Europe. If this is so then it is unlikly that VS will go the LCC way within Europe but if they do go for BMI (and I now don't think they will) they would have the makings of a good airline to support this type of service.


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SJR

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 28 Jan 18:23

Interesting prospect but Virgin could suddenly find there market disappears to the likes of another airline if they dont stop messing about. I was reading in a forum today that Aer Lingus and Aer Arran are streamlining operations although how far this goes i dont know and rumours suggest they are planning to join Star Alliance. If this happens they will be the Star carrier for the whole United Kingdom. They already have a base at Gatwick and if they were interested in buying Bmi that would give them Heathrow to work with as well. Reduce frequencies on routes they dont make high earnings on and use those slots for longhaul. This could cause seriously damage Virgin in the longrun.


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captain bill

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 28 Jan 21:48

Right now EI can't even finance aircraft they have on order and have deferred delivery. They have no intentions at this stage of expansion and as I reported in another thread they are reducing big time their routes out of LGW.

BMI will remain in the hands of LH for a long time to come and they will work hard to build BD up as we get out of this recession.


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speedbird9468

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 29 Jan 23:11

so why don't LH invest some cash in BMI if they want to keep it.?


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Mabel

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 29 Jan 0:16

LH doesn't have all that much cash to go around, and whatever cash they do have seems to be going towards their long-haul widebody fleet. They're taking delivery of new 346s and will soon be taking delivery of the 388s and maybe 748s. They also have their Italian short-haul subsidiary to bankroll. That's why they're trying to sell off BMI...to raise cash for their long-haul and southern European operations.

If I were a bookmaker I'd put these odds on BMI:

Virgin Group: 5-1
Lufthansa (no sale): 7.5-1
EasyJet: 10-1 (the narrowbodies only, the 332s would then be sold to help pay off BD's debts)
Bankruptcy/liquidation: 20-1
Arab investor: 25-1
FlyBE: 50-1


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captain bill

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 29 Jan 8:12

If and I now think in the near future it is a BIG IF if LH sell BMI it will be a carve up between B. A. and FlyBE or Virgin but what is Virgin going to gain by this for as FLX has reminded us Virgin can by remaining out of any allience do deals and work with as the are doing any airline to provide whatever type of service they require. Why pay good money for an inter UK/European airline to feed a small proportion of passengers into their long haul routes when this is being done for them by other carriers.


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FLX

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 29 Jan 9:46

Mabel:
Good roundup of all the investments where most, if not all, of LH Group's cash is heading towards. Don't forget Swiss Int'l and its brand new 333s(Plus all the bells & whistles of its new premium cabins) joining the fleet now and a bunch of Bombardier CS100s to be online in less than 4yrs. These will eat-up a big chunk of those LH cashflow in just a few yrs much quicker than LH Italia can do in a decade.


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Lukasz

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 29 Jan 10:47

Well, Aer Lingus does have around 500m euro in spare cash. But they need to hold on to it tight, as they will not be making any profit in the next year or two, at least.

Buying BMI would be interesting, but EI hold a very large number of LHR slots already, and they have plenty of A320 capacity available, especially after winding down their LGW base.

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/blogs/contrails/archive/2010/01/29/another-new-direction-at-aer-lingus.aspx
This is an interesting article, describing options for EI. It mentions rumors about joining Star Alliance. UK/IRL is certainly somewhat of a hole in the *A map.

Then again, I just cannot see any legacy airline operation expanding anywhere in the next few years. Pressured by growing LCCs on one side, and a long-lasting cutbacks in corporate spending on the other. The recent LH acquisitions are just consolidation/bailout moves, rather than any real expansion.


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FLX

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 29 Jan 14:15

Spare cash usually don't translate well into major investment outlay in this industry. Health of the balance sheet matters more. Also, 500m Euro can evaporate quickly as soon as oil hits US$140 or higher again(Not entirely impossible as econ activities hv certainly picked-up in some regions already outside EU/U.S.) and the weak mkt demand where EI operates(EI does not fly any major emerging mkts) persists for a few yrs.


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captain bill

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 29 Jan 16:32

I may be wrong again but I don't think EI teaming up with RE is a great idea apart from and IF the RE ATRs are in EI paint which will give EI a higher profile at airports where they dont fly into right now.

I use RE a lot and 9 times out of 10 they are late and the on-board service is of an LCC standard and on some flights lower. I do like the fact that I get an allocated seat with them but it is on ATR42 and 72 aircraft which is not my bestest airliner although I did fly with one older pilot the other day who said the ATR-72 was a great  wee  aeroplane so he should know.

EI-DUB if you are out there any thoughts on the EI/RE thing.


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Mabel

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 29 Jan 16:37

I agree...if I remember correctly EI used to fly domestic/regional with props (Saab 340?) in the early 90s but gave it up after a few years because of low yields. Once bitten twice shy.


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SJR

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 29 Jan 17:48

Still an interesting speculation on this point and at the time of posting i hadnt read about Aer Lingus reducing at LGW. I was always of the opinion that LGW was a bad choice of airport for Aer Lingus due to the competition they faced. Saying that i dont think Manchester would have been a better choice and the low cost airlines are getting just about everywhere these days.


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captain bill

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 29 Jan 22:02

Mabel EI flew Short 360, Fokker F-50 and BAe-146 on their Regional Division and as you say it was a bit of a disaster. They had to create route to suit the aircraft as the F-50 and 146 was too small for most of the routes they intended them for. They were soon back to using 737s on these routes and again even the 500s that they had were too small so they went for the 320s.

It was at this time that Aer Arann started to expand from a B.N. Islander and Trilander user to ATR-42s and then to the larger 72s.


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ChieftainStuart

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 29 Jan 22:30

Dear Aviation friends across the North Sea.
I am delighted to read that some of you are coming around to the point I made on, 18.Dec.2009, that it would not be a wise move for *A to give up the UK.

The inclusion of EIN into the equation is a very interesting thought, the pax loads between FRA and DUB are improving.

It was interesting to note that the last 2 occasions I transited FRA, the EIN 320 was not parked in the other Airlines bays  but along side EWG, SAS and CLH aircraft down the far end by the A5.

Sometimes these small matters are the start of painting a larger picture.

A similar procedure happened to MSN and THY at FRA before mileage flown was credited to our Miles-and-More accounts then it is only a matter of time before the larger step to *A and Status Miles.

COA were treated in a similar way.

A case of testing the waters in getting to know each other first.


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7107delicious

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 01 Feb 2:16

Virgin's still the best bet. I wouldn't like to see the airlines out of England purchasing the same airline.

Apart from Bmi's issue, what about Bmibaby's future?


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matt757

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 01 Feb 3:35

FLX, I think Austrian is actually eating more of LH's resources at the moment than Swiss, which is another aspect to where LH's cash is going (I flew OS last Week, and the Editorial in their In-Flight Mag was about how their new ownership put them on a much more solid footing. LX, meanwhile, are now turning a profit after the mess it was when LH first bought it).

And as for speculating about Virgin joining any Alliance, don't forget that VS is 49% owned by Singapore Airlines, so I'd imagine the chances of it going anywhere other than Star were pretty remote [b]if[/b] they decided to go for an Alliance...


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ChieftainStuart

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 30 Apr 16:56

Dear Forum Colleagues.

I have just returned home from Berlin and the Annual Meeting of Lufthansa Group company.

Allow me to remind you of my Forum message on 18th December 2009, the contents of which were confirmed by the Lufthansa Company Presidium at this meeting. It is very important for Star Alliance to maintain its presence in the United Kingdom.

Neither Austrian or BMI will be sold off.
In fact the discussion was more concentrated on Austrian with little mention of BMI. We were informed that both Austrian and BMI will be integrated into the Lufthansa Group ticketing system and Miles-and-More Programme. With BMI having its own Diamond Club, will be brought closer step by step in preparation for the eventual integration. Lufthansa Frequent Flyers will eventually receive Executive Bonus miles for flights flown with BMI.

I think this closes the discussion and my apologies for those who were not so confident, earlier this year.

Of the both it will be Austrian that will cause the most problems, via the Austrian legal system.

The question was raised on the groups interest in SAS and wait for it, pieces of British Airways. There was little comment from the top table, other that any mention of BA had been a slip of the tongue, but the body language did send out some messages to those of us who were present. By 2015 who knows.


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captain bill

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 01 May 9:16

Stuart,

Can you confirm that BMI will remain as an independent airline within the group and that further investment will be made to strengthen the company. Also do you know what will happen to Regional as in another thread I said I felt it could once again be integrated with BMI and save money.


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ChieftainStuart

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 16 May 9:52

Captain Bill.

I can confirm that BMI will remain as an independent airline. It is not a Lufthansa policy to become a Mega Carrier. They work the Module system. SWISS, Austrian and Brussels Airways have maintained their identity by being a part of the Lufthansa AG group.

Investment will be made in due course. First the fleet needs to be adjusted as BMI is the only group member with Embraers. There is a large order at Bombardier for their new CSeries. The first of these are ear-marked for SWISS but the current situation may mean some go to BMI, when one sees that BMI planes are flying SWISS codeshared flights.

The Regional policy was discussed at great length. If you look at the other group members, they all have Regionals.

As the object of all businesses is to make a profit, BMI will be structured to do just that, as a member of a Premium Airline group, which has every intention to maintain a First Class option in the cabin configuration.

Lufthansa AG also includes Germanwings and BMIbaby (Low-Cost) and Private Air (Business Only).

It will take time for all departments, including Frequent Flyer Programmes and internet reservations to be integrated.

We are confident that BMI will eventually become a strong player within Europe, after various strategy refinements.




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captain bill

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  Topic: WHO WILL BUY BMI - Sent 16 May 16:48

This is good to hear Stuart. I go back a long way with British Midland and have admired what Sir Michael has done over the years and would hate to see it disappear.


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