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Home >> Forum >> A321 vs 757-200 Civil aviation forum
A321 vs 757-200
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Message of speedbird9468 - Sent 24 Sep 1:54 |
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Thers an interesting discussion about the the A321 and the 757 on Airliners.net in that the some of the members are quoting the A321 will never go Transatlantic. Well Im gonna prove them wrong. Here in REC we get a charter flight by NovAir from Stockholm using an A321. Now thats got to be longer than LHR KFK in a 757. Ok its stops in Las Palmas. But its still transatlantic as it does cross the pond from north to south if you like. Heres the link. Just wish some people would get their facts right. Of course it can go transatlantic. It doesn't mention about any stops. I could go Transatlantic in a DH chipmonk if I want to. Wouldn't be ver comfortable though. But its crossing the Atlantic albeit with several stops. Like to read your opinions.
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Message of speedbird9468 - Sent 24 Sep 1:55 |
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Message of captain bill - Sent 25 Sep 20:59 |
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Almost any aircraft can cross the Atlantic or Pacific for that matter provided there are lots of stopping points to pick up fuel. The A-321 has not got the range to do for example Europe to USA with a half load of passengers far less a full load. If it could you would see many airlines buying it to replace Boe.757 which are now used extensivly on the pond.
We have had a debate some to ago on this site about the future of the 757 and as far as airlines who need the range of the 757 the A-321 is not an alternative. A-321 is a great airliner for airlines who need the capacity of the 757 but who dont need the range so come on Airgus give us a longer range A-321 or will as has been whispered in airline circles, will Boeing come up with a replacement.
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Message of speedbird9468 - Sent 26 Sep 1:01 |
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Message of FLX - Sent 27 Sep 23:57 |
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Realistically, how many pax do U think are willing to accept a 1 technical stop transatlantic service today? Even for LCCs like Air Transat, FlyGlobespan, it's extremely rare to hv 1-stop service. The extra time+cost of a tech stop is pure madness fm the point of view of today's fleet utilization and customer service expectations. It's not economically viable, pure & simple and that is a fact. Come on, this isn't the 1930s or 40s where refuel stops were the norm for crossing the pond! The charter mkt is a completely diff animal than schedule service. It's not like I can buy a ticket on a charter & fly in any month I want to....
2nd, as we know, given the same basic aircraft(e.g. A321), 1 of the key factors for more range is higher MTOW which in turn require higher thrust engines. This is how Boeing, for example, turn a 772ER into a 772LR.
I read fm somewhere that the most powerful variants of the CFM56 turbofans on the A32X and A343 families hv already reached their potential development limit. I believe this is true because if it isn't, the A345/346 would hv used a higher-thrust variant developed fm the existing CFM56 already used on the A343 instead of going to the trouble of sourcing/developing a completely diff Trent 500 AND lose engine commonality @ the same time.
Unless there's a completely new, slightly more powerful engine family that make sense for narrow-body airliner(e.g. It doesn't make sense to use Trent1000 or GEnx for narrow-body airliners), there'll never be a A321ER with enough range to do transatlantic non-stop. Not even today's 739ER, an A321ER's most direct competitor, can do that. How about re-engine an A321ER with the 752's RB211 or PW4000 turbofans? Well, both designs are at least 25 yrs old, way behind CFM56 in terms of efficiency and for many airlines, mean sacrifice engine commonality with other A32Xs already in their fleet.
I believe airlines will continue with the 752 to do transatlantic for a while until its true viable future replacement in the form of the largest variant of the Airbus NSR or Boeing Y1 appear. Both will use a completely new engine family with higher thrust potential than any CFM56. Don't hold your breath though as neither will EIS before 2015 or later.
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Message of speedbird9468 - Sent 27 Sep 1:15 |
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I didn't mention non stop I just said tranatlantic. Also I it means that I have to do a tech stop somewhere i wouldn't mind at all. At leats I'll get a glimpse of somewhere new. But then again I'm speaking for myself.
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Message of captain bill - Sent 27 Sep 7:56 |
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Yes I also do love a fuel stop or I sometime book deliberatly so I can have a change of aircraft or airline before reaching my destination. It's a little more expensive but what the heck it's only money.
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Message of speedbird9468 - Sent 28 Sep 2:50 |
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I actually found it cheaper. I once flew to Orlando on a 757 with a stop in Gander. It was a flight only deal and I got it for a cheaper price than scheduled carriers. I even paid for xtra leg room and got it. Not the best flight but hey it was comfortable the food and coffec was good and the hosties were rather hot. It was with Air 2000 some time ago earlky 90s'
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Message of Werkur737 - Sent 30 Sep 6:40 |
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I love when have a fuel stop, and change aircraft, but i think for non-stop B757-200 is better than A321. NWA, COA, AAL are using the 752 for long haul succesfully with winglets for AMS and MAN for exemples. More than 7,200 km of range proved it. Most of passengers look for non-stop flights. 
AIRFLEETS.NET STAFF
PHOTO SCREENER
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Message of FLX - Sent 09 Oct 8:08 |
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speedbird9468:
If charter, non-direct flights are not SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than their scheduled equivalents, don't take them. On a charter, the airline decide when U should fly for holiday/biz. On schedule flights, U decide when to fly for holiday/biz. I believe very few people on earth hv the luxury to take time-off away fm their offices anytime they wish without their bosses yell @ them.
Werkur737:
A321 simply is technically unable to fly transatlantic non-stop with a full pax load. For details, read my earlier comments. However, that's about the only thing where most transatlantic 752s are superior to A321s.
When 752 was born over 25 yrs ago, it wasn't designed for transtlantic ops(Not even for U.S. west coast<->Hawaii route). The ETOPS concept wasn't even on the table during final design phase. It was never intended for transatlantic ops and no U.S. airlines that bought the bulk of all 752s @ that time planned for such use. Boeing's primary goal was to replace the 727 with a higher performance aircraft mainly for the U.S. domestic mkt: Bigger capacity, more fuel efficieny, 2-crew 'glass' cockpit and most importantly, a little bit beyond U.S. transcontinental non-stop range. This last point made the 752 potentially capable to fly transatlantic non-stop as U.S. transcontinental range is only a bit shorter than transatlantic distance. In a sense, while designing the 752, Boeing had also unintentionally build transtlantic capability in it.
Similar to Boeing, Airbus' primary design goal back in the late 80s for the A321 is give it capability to fly between the furthest 2 major cities in Western Europe. However, because that distance is much shorter than U.S. transcontinental range, Airbus never gave the A321 a design potential to fly transatlantic nonstop.
With today's domination by ETOPS and transatlantic mkt fragmentation, the only narrowbody airliner capable to do transatlantic nonstop is the 752 - a tech that is over 25 yrs old! At the same time, 752s are becoming too big for many super-competitive U.S. domestic trunk routes due to the 737NGs/A32X of the LCCs. Major U.S. airlines like NW, CO, AA noticed all these and their solution? Start to deploy their huge fleet of ancient 752s on transtlantic routes. Result? After many yrs of U.S. domestic flying, U'll find most of these 752s(CO's 752 may be an exception) now doing transatlantic are old and hv poorly maintained cabins. A few of the NW's ex-U.S. domestic 752s also found their way into Asia to fly NW's Japan<->Asian routes(Nonstop ranges a bit shorter than U.S. transcontinental). I hv seen 1 of these NW 752s before and compared with the standard of any Asian airlines' narrowbody, the NW ones are fm the stone-age! Not a very good symbol of America's image in Asia.....
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Message of speedbird9468 - Sent 10 Oct 1:17 |
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Hi FLX.
If it means i fly cheaper and the airline state the time then I don't care as long as it gets me there. Ive never had a bad experience on a charter flight. The room is not as much and I don't hate the food. In fact the best flight I had was on Air 2000 back in 94 from LGW to Dalaman. I fly with TAP quite regularly from REC to LHR and to be honest its a good service but there are chaters that are better. But then again thats my own opinion
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Message of FLX - Sent 10 Oct 6:31 |
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speedbird9468:
I envy U. U seems to hv the 'luxury' of:
1) don't hv to care about your boss or
2) Having a very friendly boss or
3) Having no boss at all
so U can get time off fm work anytime(Or your charter airlines' schedule) U wish. Most of us are not as lucky as U....at least until our retirement.
I flew charter before when I was in college/university. Nobody told U what time U must be @ your desk in those days...
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