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Message of SJR - Sent 23 Jul 21:43 |
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I was reading on www.justplanes.com that Bmi has order 5 airbus A321's and 5 A330-200's. If this is the case presumebly the aircraft are to be utilised from London Heathrow. Glad to see Bmi finally commiting to operate more long haul flights.
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Message of Werkur737 - Sent 24 Jul 22:05 |
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SJR, i read that too. I think BMI will expand it's long haul flights to US. Unfortunately they will not fly to PHL.
I see BMI as the second airline for Britain and think they would grow a lot on Long haul flights.
BMI could also expand it's medium operations with more A321's and more ERJ145's, to face BA Connect and Easyjet.
Britain has space for three big airlines and BA has to face big competitors. Like Air France in France, BA is only one major in Britain, and it's bad for competition.
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Message of G-NIKO - Sent 24 Jul 0:41 |
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Message of speedbird9468 - Sent 24 Jul 2:33 |
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Message of SJR - Sent 24 Jul 11:15 |
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Virgin Atlantic has one major downfall and that is its total lack of short haul flights. BA Connect is no more since Flybe bought it and is now disposing of the fleet. The Dash 8-300's are gone from Manchester as are the 146's yet most E145's remain and some have been repainted. Bmi has also recently aquired Bmed from British airways and they have quite a few airbuses also. More importantly for Bmi they have slots at LHR which Bmi will most likely use for long haul operations. I wouldn't be too supprised to see Virgin Atlantic look to start up its own European routes but i think they would need to find a lot of slots at Heathrow and as we all know this is a serious problem as it is crowded. Therefore Virgin Atlantic would have to buy out source several slots from other airlines. I doubt United Airlines plans to sell anymore and U.S. Carriers are fighting to buy as many slots as they can because of the open skies.
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Message of FLX - Sent 25 Jul 5:37 |
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Interesting view of BMI re overall standing among all U.K. based airlines.
I assure you that in the U.S. and almost all major Asia-Pcf mkts, avg consumers who can name the top 2 carriers fm U.K. will say BA and VS. Agreed BMI has got a huge domestic+Euro network compared with VS, it's less well known beyond Europe. Sir Branson has just been too successful in mkting VS as a funky but hi-quality British alternative to BA that its image is now entrenched in other continents.
Frankly, superior image/perception/celebrity clout is 1 thing, the reality is that VS' services are, I believe, a bit over-rated.
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Message of SJR - Sent 25 Jul 10:59 |
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Well i class Virgin as the second British airline purely because of its long haul market and brand image.
BMI has always been somewhat lacking in the long haul market as Virgin has been in the short haul market. Rumours have been circulating that the two might merge although if they do Virgin will have a hostile takeover fight to takeover BMI since they really dont want to sell.
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Message of captain bill - Sent 27 Jul 19:37 |
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Branson has wanted his hands on BMI for a long time but Sir Michael Bishop will not sell or merge as he has his own agenda for development both short and long haul.
BMI baught Bmed from BA in March this year for £30 million and aquired an additional 17 routes from LHR so these new A320 / A321 aircraft will be used to back up these routes and develop further European routes.
The group also intend to expand BMI Regional and Baby with the E jet family the preferred types for these two airlines with some of the higher capacity routes being transferred from Baby to BMI.
With regard to Virgin, well to get Virgin going BA had to give up routes and slots at LHR as Branson did his usual lamenting about how unfair it was that BA who took years to build up routes to JFK and TYO out of LHR and make them pay should now give them to him to get him going which did happen and well the rest is history.
We talk about BA being a London Airline but so also is Virgin but BMI are now all over the UK and doing well.
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Message of FLX - Sent 30 Jul 4:18 |
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Captain bill,
I'm compelled to disagreed with your view re BA having to give-up routes to VS @ LHR.
To be fair, Branson's constant complaints about what BA 'owns' in LHR are annoying. If Branson wants a bigger pie(i.e. develops a true VS hub in the London area) quickly, move the whole op to LGW, Stansted or Luton. Land for building an 'imaginary' extra runway @ LHR to increase slots will only appear in fairy-tales.
On the other hand, how long do U think is a fair period for BA to recoup investment fm their LHR orginated intercontinental trunk routes monopoly(Well, actually a duopoly because a corresponding foreign carrier was allowed in too)? I don't hv any solid factual dates to back my claims but I believe BOAC(Ex-BA's Intercon biz) and later BA had been granted almost exclusive rights to fly JFK & HND(Now NRT) fm LHR for nearly 50 yrs or more. Though I'm uncertian, it's probably the same or even longer re SIN,HKG,SYD,etc. You can easily find historic photos of BOAC's Boeing flying boat parked @ the waterfront of these cities.....Man, the era of the flying boats and that's how long ago when BOAC/BA started building these routes! I stated 'almost exclusive' because B-CAL and Laker did offered some competitions for a little while in the early 80s but was soon swallowed by BA or disappeared.
If a carrier can't recoup investment in 50 yrs on developing a set of exclusive intercon trunk routes fm LHR, I fail to see any reason to continue supporting the monopolistic arrangement(i.e. slots given to BA simply because they were there 1st). Be it VS or BMI, give someone else(Of course, it has to be UK based for political reason, I guess British people would want no stinking foreign infestations such as Ryanair, Southwest, Jetstar Int'l, etc.) a chance so consumers hv more choices and benefit fm the competition. The commercial aviation world has changed. These routes are no longer an enormous tech/financial challenge like the days of the Boeing/Catalina flying boats and many related infrastures hv been in place that are easily accessible & relatively affordable(e.g. Online sales vs local ticketing offices). BOAC was a pioneer and deserved a lot of 'credits' but the trail-blazing and 'credits' payback days were long gone.
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Message of captain bill - Sent 30 Jul 21:01 |
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Am I wrong to say that BA had to give up two prime routes from LHR to JFK and TYO to Virgin ?
Am I wrong to say that Mr. Branson as then was kept on and on to the press, TV and to anyone who would listen to him regarding what he called BA's monopoly at LHR ?
Am I wrong to say that eventually Mr. Branson lobbied MP's and the PM herself (Mrs. Thatcher) regarding this matter of BA and LHR ?
Regarding this duopoly you speak of please remember that a privatised BA inherited this situation from a nationalised BOAC and this duopoly was due to our past political leaders and not to BA. When BA was privatised it had to take on all of the terms and conditions that went with it and never did the management or shareholders imagine that two very profitable routes would have to be surendered which led to some real bad things being done by BA against Virgin.
Yes one of my mentors from the past in the form of Laker did offer some competition but Fred was targeting a diferent market than BA as he was after the holiday traffic hence the routes to YYZ, YVR, YCR, LAX, MIA, NYC and so on.
My other great teacher, Sir Adam Thomson did do very well with B-CAL but again it was due to the fact that he could not get slots at LHR that the board decided to speak with Lord King at BA about a takeover and looking back on the situation I am now convinced that the time was right for this to happen but there is hardly a day that goes by that I don't like so many others mis the Rampant Lion of B-CAL.
Back to BMI, I have always admired Mike Bishop and have watched with interest the growth of this wonderful airline. BMI will do well in the future as they develop the BMED routes and slowly take up the open skys policy at LHR to develope Trans Atlantic and other Intercontinental routes.
I am convinced that there is a place for three prime UK carriers to serve the world from LHR, BA, BMI and Virgin all wonderful examples of how airlines should and can be run for the benefit of passenders, staff and shareholders alike.
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Message of FLX - Sent 31 Jul 11:22 |
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Captain bill, none of the 3 points you've stated are wrong. All I'm saying is that all 3 actions listed are justified in order to maximize consumer benefits. Look, my view is very simple:
1) LHR-NRT/JFK by BA only = Bad for consumers
2) LHR-NRT/JFK by VS only = Bad for consumers
3) LHR-NRT/JFK by BA+VS = Better for consumers
4) LHR-NRT/JFK by BA+VS+BMI = Super for consumers
1) was history
2) is never going to happen no matter how hard Branson continues to scream at or get cozy with the UK gov't(BTW, I'm not an UK national) and I doubt it is the real intent behind Branson's super-charged lobbying effort...he might hv dreamed about it though.
3) Status quo. Yes, BA were forced to give up 1) to get to 3). But for consumers, it's definitely an improvement over 1) in anyway you wish to cut it. BA and VS, more or less, hv equal chance to win customers.
4) This scenario kinda ties-in with your last section. E.g., if LHR technically only allows totally 3 pairs of slot to NRT/JFK in the near future, best case for consumers will be BA, VS and BMI each gets 1 pair. This is still true even if poor BA already hold grandfather rights on all 3 pairs and is now told to give up 2 to VS and BMI. I may weep for BA but I'll still support 4) as the right thing to do.
BA did in the past held unused slots LHR-NRT in which all I can say is that: If you don't use it, you lose it. This is especially true for scare commodity like landing slots @ ultra-congested & sought-after airports like LHR and NRT. If BA can't fully utilize their alloted precious slots due to whatever reason, move over and give someone else a chance. If same thing happens to VS(Holding unused slots), by all means, strip them off VS and give them to BA or BMI if they can truly utilize the slots. Demand nearly always exceed supply for flights between LHR and NRT/JFK.
1 more thing I wish to mention re BA's transition fm a nationalized entity to a privatized one. Yes, there were tons of restrictive terms & conditions. However, the burdens couldn't be that bad relative to its advantages/assets. Otherwise, why would its IPO 11 times oversubscribed - an unusal acheivement back in the late 80s' financial mkt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Atlantic_Airways
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Message of SJR - Sent 31 Jul 12:16 |
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How many carriers currently fly London to New York.
British Airways
American Airlines
Continental Airlines
Delta Air Lines
Virgin Atlantic
Air India
Maxjet
Silverjet
Are there any i have missed? (Not sure about EOS)
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Message of captain bill - Sent 31 Jul 13:06 |
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FLX Good to hear you again and at the end of the day I think we agree on most if not all on what each other say. For far too long one airline had the monopoly and we agree why and I think we also agree that routes from any airport are not a matter of right for any one but they must be allocated on a fair and just method rather than one or another demanding them. What will the asking airline bring to the party, will it be good for all travelers.
Good to talk with someone like yourself and EI-DUB who are passionate about the subject.
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Message of captain bill - Sent 31 Jul 18:29 |
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Message of SJR - Sent 31 Jul 20:56 |
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Message of FLX - Sent 01 Aug 9:32 |
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SJR:
CX is scheduled to start JFK-LHR before End07 using their brand new 77W equipped with their newly designed F/C/Y cabins.
Captain bill:
Yes, it seems our views are similar on most issues re LHR access. It's also wonderful to be able to learn so much fm U re the history+politics of LHR, BA, VS, BMI, Laker and B-CAL. B-CAL, in particular, is a very cool & gutsy airline in an overwhemingly BA dominant era. I never had the chance to sample B-CAL services because I was only a kid when, e.g., B-CAL announced the LGW-HKG route.
No doubt BMI is a reputable carrier and with the rapidly fading Bermuda II, on a solid growth path that will probably include the LHR-JFK mkt. If BMI ever starts LHR-JFK, they'll find themselves competing with interesting and powerful newcomers such as CX. When CX's new JFK-LHR service starts, it'll effectively begin their 1st ever true/non-codeshare Round-The-World schedule all done on the same CX aircraft/flight #(Provisional flight# CX852/853): HKG<->JFK<->LHR<->HKG. Correct me if I'm wrong but this will probably be the 1st ever scheduled non-stop service between all 3 leading world financial capitals by a single carrier(Pan Am and UA had something similar but they were not non-stop flights).
The only problem is that I'm not a big fan of CX! Fm the preview though, their new Biz class is pretty damn good.
Also, I can't imagine AA and BA, both OneWorld buddies of CX and LHR-JFK incumbents, will be excited about this development.....
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Message of B340 - Sent 01 Aug 10:09 |
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Message of SJR - Sent 01 Aug 19:23 |
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