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Dornier 228
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Message of 1991 - Sent 08 Jan 17:07 |
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I am starting a new scottish airline and i am thinking about using the Dornier 228,if anyone has been a passenger in one of these aircrafts or flown one of these aircraft then do please do tell me what you thought about the aircraft.Were you impressed by it or were you dissapointed?
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Message of SJR - Sent 08 Jan 17:54 |
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I haven't flown on one or flown one but i can say the following
1) If you have Sky there is a program called FlightDeck on DiscoveryWings and one episode is all about the 328 and from what i can tell it is very good and apparently very quite for a prop aircraft.
2) I like the 328 as a spotter but then again what good is that really
3) I see you have seriously considered the 328. I mentioned it a while back in the first post and you seemed to think it would be well out of the price range of your airline. I see the fuel savings and short runway capability have changed your mind 
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Message of captain bill - Sent 08 Jan 20:48 |
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1991 can you tell me how much working capital you have for this new airline and how much you would be able to lodge as a financial security bond for any future financial upsets.
We are talking millions of pounds here and if you have or can raise this kind of money you need to be looking at a much more advanced operation than domestics from Dundee.
The future is in the medium to long hall market just look at the quick rise to success of FLYGLOBSPAN and JET2.com .
Don't mimic these carriers as this low cost / budget market is now saturated and costs very well might be driven down further to the extent that no one will be in profit.
There is a need from Scotland and other UK airports for a carrier to fly to the same destinations as these carriers but offering a higher standard of service so this is where I think you should focus your attention.
I hate to be a kill joy but I have to say that a start up airline from Dundee to the destinations you have mentioned will not be around for too long. Others have tried in the past and failed due to the lack of support from Dundonians. I have mentioned in the other thread about the attempts of Loganair, Air Ecosse and Euroair in the past and all have either failed or pulled out. The only routes out of Dundee that I think would be a success would be LHR LGW MAN without co-loading with passengers from another origine points (ABZ or INV)
I would love to see Dundee and Carlisle and other little regional airports be much more active with commercial traffic but I have my doubts.
I don't wish to dampen your enthusiasum but I would rather see you put your efforts and money if you have the required 10's of millions available being channeled into a business that will be a success.
Remember from little acorns great oak trees grow so keep on going but it has to be in the right direction.
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Message of SJR - Sent 08 Jan 21:18 |
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Message of SJR - Sent 08 Jan 21:20 |
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Message of 1991 - Sent 08 Jan 21:40 |
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Thanks captain bill for the advice,i dont have 10's of millions but i think you could get the an airline running with the cost of the plane and say £100.000 i definatley want to run the dundee-isle of man route.There is an operating route all-ready running with scotairways but i dont know if there is big enough demand for a second company to run this route.If the prices could be lower than scotairways then the route could be a success.Also SRJ mensioned a route to Manchester,this could be usefull for people traveling for business purposes or for people to connect to flights to all over the world
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Message of lemansnut - Sent 09 Jan 23:05 |
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I see you are a student still at school, so do you have this capital or is it just a pipe dream. Mind you there is nothing wrong with dreaming, we all do that at times.
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Message of captain bill - Sent 09 Jan 7:14 |
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To be honest SJR when you are flying small twin prop 18 to 30 seaters you will find that no matter what routes you are on you will have very very high costs so you will not be able to offer low enough budget type fares to attract the numbers you need to be a success. The number of rotatations you would need to do per day from Dundee would empty Dundee of it's population. Also these types need more maintainance than the larger jet types so again costs are high.
Dundee - Isle of Man is a summer only route and I don't think it could be a daily service even during the summer so where are the other 3 or 4 routes you need to fly on a daily basis going to be to to cover your costs of this aircraft for the day. Every hour it is on the deck costs you money and lots of it.
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Message of SJR - Sent 09 Jan 12:37 |
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Yes i am well aware of the costs. If the route to the Isle of Man is going to be run it shouldn't be one of the first route run. The aircraft mentioned the Do228 is quite small. The cost of flights is going to be quite large from Dundee because one to get safe routes that will carry the right amount (profitably) of customers the airline will have to pay a fortune in landing costs. I personally think that £500000 is more likely to be a start up cost but the first aircraft needs really to carry more passengers. I suggested the Do328 but this is expensive due to its moderness and aircraft such as the F27 have high maintainance costs. What you really need is an aircraft that can land at Dundee and carry between 30-50 passengers and also carry some cargo. The best thing really looks to be a 146-200 as there are many on the market so they should be cheaper to obtain.
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Message of SJR - Sent 09 Jan 13:12 |
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Message of G-NIKO - Sent 09 Jan 17:05 |
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Message of SJR - Sent 09 Jan 19:48 |
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Message of G-NIKO - Sent 09 Jan 20:05 |
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Message of 1991 - Sent 09 Jan 20:18 |
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Yes i agree,the 228 is far too small,but i want to use prop aircraft.i have had an idea for a new route:
Wick - London City
What do you think?
Could a jetstream 41 may be a good aircraft for the job?
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Message of 1991 - Sent 09 Jan 20:32 |
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Message of G-NIKO - Sent 09 Jan 20:58 |
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Message of G-NIKO - Sent 09 Jan 21:03 |
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Message of G-NIKO - Sent 09 Jan 21:06 |
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Message of SJR - Sent 10 Jan 15:15 |
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As i said in the last post the only way to convince the bank is to have strong evidence that the idea may work. I personally on some terms do agree with Captain Bill that Dundee is a bit to small to be focused on in such a large way but as you want to start there you may want to look at the alternatives and problems that Dundee actually has.
Dundee can't grow as it is surrounded so it can only take a certain amount of traffic. It has a short runway and is therefore limited to small aircraft therefore meaning that capacity would be low. I would not completely drop Dundee as a base but i certainly wouldn't have it as my first base unless there was enough evidence to prove that it would work. To do this it would take about two to three years of producing a business plan which isn't easy especially if you don't know what you are doing.
Aberdeen again is small but if i am correct in thinking there is more that can be done from their as a destination. Routing to London City would be one for example. Larger aircraft can travel their such as the 737 series
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Message of 1991 - Sent 10 Jan 17:24 |
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i am NOT wanting to use jet aircraft,i want this to be a small regional airline with Prop only aircraft,if the bussiness goes well them i would think about jet aircraft.i would also charter the aircraft as an extra income for the company.
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Message of captain bill - Sent 10 Jan 18:14 |
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Good on you 1991. I admire your determination and hope you go ahead with it because I think for you and no onw else it will work.
I had two great mentors in the industry both of whom went ahead with their ideas dispite what people advised them to do and both were among the most successfull in the business. One was Sir Adam Thomson who set up Caledonian Airways who merged with British United Airways to become British Caledonian Airways and the other was the great Sir Freddy Laker.
Sir Adam was told not to have anything to do with BUA as it would drag him and Calie down but look at the success of Bcal and when Fred was told to forget about getting back into the airline business far less start up SkyTrain with DC-10s he did his usual and did it his way so much so that he was the envy of the industry.
Go ahead young man and get this new airline up and flying and when it is I will be in contact so remember the name Captain Bill and give me a little discount on my first flight.
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Message of 1991 - Sent 10 Jan 18:36 |
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Thanks captain bill for the great advice please do keep it coming,iam just stuck with what plane to settle on.Of course you will get a discount with my airlines,i hope you travel with my airline and help it become a success.
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Message of SJR - Sent 10 Jan 19:49 |
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Does that apply to all the other who have helped. One other thing the business plan i did is only a guide and therefore you need to think a lot lot bigger and remember the key things, research and detail.
Captain Bill may also have forgotten the dyslexic Richard Branson who may well have had money from prior business but still deserves respect for what he has achieved. I hope one day to be succesful in the airline industry but at the moment that will have to sit on the side lines i have to focus on my degree. Good luck to you and with the determination you seem to have there is little doubt in my mind that your company will be succesful.
As to turn to aircraft choices ignoring jets as specified
ATP
Jetstream 31
Jetstream 41
Saab 340
Saab 2000
ATR42
ATR72
Do228
Do328
Fokker 50
These seem to be the only real options. You have already eliminated many of them in your mind i am sure but before choosing look at the availability of these types, cost of fuel, cost of leasing and this should allow you to work out which will best suite you. For the moment don't worry about aircraft type that is part of you research as is assessing the routes (determined by demand).
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Message of 1991 - Sent 10 Jan 20:36 |
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well,i have found a company,AVIES that lease planes.They have a Jetstream 31 and a LET UPV that could be usefull on the flights,however the company is based in Estonia, therefore i am waiting for a reply from then as whether they would lease thier planes to fly the routes my airline would fly.
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Message of SJR - Sent 10 Jan 21:15 |
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I think the J31 would probably be cheeper to operate and parts may be easier to obtain, it probably burns less fuel to. See if they have J41's because they would be even better as they carry more people
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Message of G-NIKO - Sent 10 Jan 21:37 |
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Message of captain bill - Sent 10 Jan 22:01 |
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I am not a Richard Branson fan for a number of reasons although I do think his airline is good.
J-41 better than J-31 as 41 has lower running cost but have you thought of the 44 seater ATR-42 which again has very low running costs similar to J-41 and the break even point is low. This allows room for expantion also when the time comes you can upgrade to the ATR-72. I know both these types and have flown in them and know their capabilities to be good. Look at the way Aer Arann have expanded using these types.
ATP high running cost and has a lot of down time due to undercarrage problems.
Dont lease from Estonia please please no. Better to lease from a UK bank such as Royal Bank of Scotland or from another airline who will within the package supply filght crew so all you need to find is trolly dollies.
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Message of G-NIKO - Sent 10 Jan 22:17 |
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me and 1991 were talking about routes that will gain profits.
Does any one no what routes Tartan wings could operate and be succesfull. or routes that have high demand.
I think 1991 was to operate out of Dundee.
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Message of captain bill - Sent 11 Jan 8:57 |
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Message of SJR - Sent 11 Jan 11:18 |
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Yes its all well and good mentioning LHR but slots are not available especially not cheaply and when they do come along BA usually takes them or another airline already operating there. LGW will have less demand but is a lot cheaper. I agree Manchester but maybe routes in Scotland such as Glasgow and Edinburgh would be cheaper than routing to London. Besides it can't really be a scottish airline if it doesn't operate any routes within Scotland now can it!
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Message of G-NIKO - Sent 11 Jan 21:10 |
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Message of captain bill - Sent 12 Jan 11:57 |
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Can someone tell me what routes will work out of Dundee and why has existing carriers no taken them up in the past ?
Can you tell me why for the last few years there is only a route to STN out of Dundee ?
Remember Dundonians can travel 1 houre or less on a good motorway to EDI or 2 hours to GLA and travel to most destination that they would want to go to on larger prop or jet equipment so why would they want to travel from Dundee on small prop types.
LHR and LGW are the two major Intercontinental and European hubs in the UK so that is why you need to service them. Also MAN.
Any route whithin Scotland from Dundee is a non starter as you can be in ABZ in 1 hour by car. INV and the Western Islands might work but then again the numbers who travel on these routes would not alow them to be profitable services.
If Dundee would have been the place to be I can give you the names of 5 or 6 airlines who have looked at Dundee and would have been there but after they did their research they gave up the idea.
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Message of G-NIKO - Sent 12 Jan 18:25 |
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Message of captain bill - Sent 12 Jan 18:56 |
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Sorry about that I was getting all worked up again but can you or someone else answer give me an answer to my questions as I would love to know why Dundee has been neglected by the airlines for all those years.
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Message of SJR - Sent 12 Jan 20:21 |
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I suppose part of the reason for Dundee not being used as much are that it is small with limitations on aircraft that can land and also has no real chance of expansion. If the B737 could land there Ryanair would be there in a flash in my personal opinion. I see your point about Scottish routes now. I hadn't really looked in to what the distance was between these cities and it isn't that far really. Maybe i am missing something here but could Dublin possibly be a second flight. So Manchester, Dublin and ? (LHR to expensive, maybe LGW).
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Message of 1991 - Sent 12 Jan 20:37 |
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ok so dundee is a small airport,and its not possible to expand it because its right next to the river tay and there is no room at the other sides.larger aircraft such as Boeings cannot land there because of its small size,so airlines ignore its potential.
Nobody has realised that dundee can still take decent size propeler aircraft and small BAe AVRO jets. Dundee is the only commercial airport for miles.The only one south of Dundee is Edinburgh but people on the fife and dundee side of the Forth can get caught up in the huge traffic jams there and in the north the next airport is Aberdeen. So this means that there is a HUGE catchment area for Dundee.But the larger airlines ignore it because of its small size and forget that the small jets it can take are still capable of flying to mainland Europe.And also toursist in England and mainland Europe could fly cheaper to dundee because the landing charges are alot less that edinburgh,yet dundee is not too far away from the capital Edinburgh.there are good bus and rail connections to Edunburgh from dundee and there are many places in the area that would be atractive to tourists such as St andrews.Last of all there are many business people in this area that would use a flight to other parts of the country (meaning Britain) but there is only one daily flight that goes to London City,there is also demand for flights to other destinations in Britain.
I hope i hav'nt drivvled on too much!!
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Message of 1991 - Sent 12 Jan 20:43 |
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Message of SJR - Sent 13 Jan 23:18 |
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Well the J31 may not have large capacity but who cares its cheap and when it also has commonality with the J41 then it begins to make more sense. One thing i might note. The first one is probably stored in the USA. You might want to try looking at Southend because last time i was there i seem to remember seeing two Embraer Brasilias, a couple of ATP's and importantly for you two J31's. Others that might have them are Eastern Airways who seem to be ditching theres and other small airfields that have stored aircraft. Just thought this might help.
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Message of captain bill - Sent 13 Jan 9:05 |
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I give up. I give in. I WILL try not to say another word on this but do wish you the very best.
IF and it is a big IF you get up and running I don't want the discount offered to me I will pay full cost of my ticket for as one who has tried to put you off and failed I don't deserve any favours from you.
I will continue to read the threads with interest and when you get up and running please in your adverts let us know it is you by getting 1991 in the advert somehow.
All the very best from an old aviator,
Captain Bill
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Message of 1991 - Sent 13 Jan 11:24 |
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Captain Bill,
i'm sorry you feel this way.We have decided to choose the J31 firstly because it is ALOT cheaper than the J41.Secondly we dont want to be running an aircraft that we cannot fill as this would definatley not be profitable.If there is big demand then we will invest in a bigger aircraft.
Also why do you doubt our ideas? All your advice has been very much appreciated and much will be very helpfull When we are up and running.
Again i'm sorry you feel this way and thankyou very much for your advice.
1991
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Message of SJR - Sent 13 Jan 13:32 |
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Well i can see where he is coming from in some respects but at the end of the day its your airline and you have to take responsibility for the choices you have made. Seeing as the J31 has been selected maybe you should look at Eastern Airways and Highland Airways who both operate the type for further information. Eastern Airways may even have a few J31's available for you to use, who knows. Good luck anyways
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Message of captain bill - Sent 13 Jan 15:25 |
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Thank you for your kindness 1991 in not blowing me out of the water and for your appreciation of some of the advice I have given you.
I have never doudted your ideas God forbid that I should as one who has seen some real crazy ideas come to pass.
I have during our discussions been doing to you what Sir Adam Thomson and Sir Freddy Laker did to me to make me think about certain things before I went ahead and made a right mess of it.
If and I know it will be a BIG IF you want me to continue challenging your thoughts and ideas then please say and I will make some comments NOT to put you off but to try and help you in the right direction. I promis to do it in a more constructive manner in the future.
When I made the comment about not taking the discount I was throwing down the gauntlet to see what your reaction would be and due to the way you seem to be focused and your determination to succeed you came through the challenge OK. You are going to get insults flung at you like you'v never know before from all sorts of people who will try to prevent you from going ahead but treat them with the contempt they deserve and keep focused. You will have interviews with people from banks, local authorities and civil servants to say the least who will challeng you to such a degree that you will sometimes wish you had never been born but smile and rise above it, go away, think things through again and go back and see these pillocks and win.
This is your project with your ideas which others will be envious of because they never thought about it BUT always keep within realistic and workable peramiters practically and most importantly finacially.
A little home work for you. Ask Dundee City Council for any information they have on other airlines who had or wanted to have a service to/from Dundee. Ask about the following airlines. Air Ecosse, Air Anglia, Air UK, Channel Airways, DanAir, Euroair, Loganair, ask about any interest shown from airlines within the last two years Eastern or Highland and see what you can learn from reading any reports they may make available to you.
Good hunting and good luck.
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Message of G-NIKO - Sent 13 Jan 15:51 |
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Message of 1991 - Sent 14 Jan 13:21 |
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thanks captain Bill and yes i would still like you to challenge my thoughts as it helps me think about are my ideas all viable.Thanks also for the the homework asinements!! keep them coming!!
thanks again
1991
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Message of 1991 - Sent 15 Jan 16:48 |
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SRJ could you please send me a link to Southend as i cannot find thier website,also i do not know where to look for 'trolley Dollies and pilots to hire for my airline, can anyone help?
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Message of G-NIKO - Sent 15 Jan 16:55 |
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Message of 1991 - Sent 15 Jan 17:30 |
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Message of 1991 - Sent 15 Jan 22:18 |
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I've just had the strangest spur of the moment idea,why not contact Richard Branson, and ask if he would be interested in being a financial backer and if not,would he be able to help me to create a bussiness plan for my company.Tell me what you think,its a mad idea,but it might just help tartanwings get up and flying,even if i have a small Virgin logo on the aircraft.Its a way to get up and running fast.
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Message of SJR - Sent 16 Jan 14:16 |
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One major difference will have to be made to the name it will have to become Tartan Virgin Wings which doesn't really create that much enthusiasm. The two Brasillias were both in KLM colours but had American Reg. Your best bet would be to try to find out who has the aircraft in storage there. I know there are also a lot of cargo aircraft and some ex BA ATP's parked up. A BAC 1-11 and 732 of ATA Brasil when i last visited. You should contact Southend Airport and ask them if any of the aircraft that might fit your plans are for lease or sale and if so who can you contact to get information and prices
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Message of 1991 - Sent 16 Jan 16:49 |
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Message of SJR - Sent 16 Jan 21:43 |
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Message of 1991 - Sent 16 Jan 21:59 |
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okay,thanks.i am still searching for a suitable Jetstream 31 (airline configuration).if anyone knows of any within the U.K or europe then please do tell me and send me a link to it.
thanks,
1991
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