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CPH

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 8:35

http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/news-events-single/detail/qantas-reveals-plans-to-expand-fleet-with-a320-family/

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Lisa

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 10:54

So Boeing is losing more and more lol....i know Lufthansa orders the A320 neos too


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CPH

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 11:05

And postpones delivery of its last six A380s by five to six years.


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Dulles_Flyer

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 12:00

Slow down CPH ........... Qantas is not taking delivery of ANY of the 320's (i.e. no kangaroo will be on the tail of any of these ac). If you read into it, the order was for LCC JetStar, part of the Qantas Group which already operates 320's.

-Jetstar Japan (being formed with JL)
-Jetstar Asia (rumour of new franchise in HKG)
-Establishing a new 'premium airline' somewhere in Asia as of yet unannounced.

Qantas still has 18 738's to take delivery on, and they are deferring 6 x 380s from 2014 to 2018 at the earliest, retaining its remaining 744's. Does not sound like Qantas is interested or sees any economic advantage to further fleet expansion beyond the remaining 738's and 787s at this time.

Qantas has virtually no competition on domestic routes aside from Virgin Australia, which has a comparable fleet (737s & 738s) to the Qantas domestic network, plus Qantas Group  routes operated by JetStar.

I still question this boom of ac orders from these LCCs stretching from the Indian subcontinent to SE Asia. Seems to me like a looming LCC war of attrition is on the horizon.


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CPH

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 13:21

FLX maybe you are a better reader than me, but what I read is: The commitment to order a minimum of 106 A320 Family aircraft includes 78 A320neo jets, making Qantas the latest airline to select the world’s best selling single-aisle aircraft. Who and what animal is on the tail, I dont know. But you seems know everything!


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CPH

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 13:34

And your ?s about the LCC boom is not that strange since the population in Asia is +/- 10 times North America and +/- 7 times Europe, and opposite those 2 continents real income is rising in Asia, and prospects at present far better!


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Dulles_Flyer

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 13:53

 These aircraft will facilitate capacity growth across Jetstar's domestic and international operations, the launch of Jetstar Japan and the establishment of Qantas' new premium Asia-focused airline,  said Qantas.

 The first of the A320s will be allocated to the new Jetstar Japan venture between the Qantas Group, Japan Airlines and Mitsubishi. 


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/08/16/360774/qantas-acquires-110-airbus-a320s-cuts-jobs-launches-new-lcc.html

Qantas will acquire between 106 and 110 Airbus A320 aircraft, including 78 re-engined A320neos, as part of a five-year restructuring plan, the Australian airline group announced Monday.

Many of the new jets would go to a new premium airline based in Asia and Jetstar Japan, a low-cost carrier Qantas plans to launch in partnership with Japan Airlines and Mitsubishi, with domestic operations starting next year.

Qantas also has deferred delivery of its remaining six Airbus A380s by up to six years to cut its capital costs and will retire four Boeing 747s due to restructuring of its international network and reconfigure remaining 747s with A380-style cabins.

The plan also includes continuing to introduce Boeing 737-800 aircraft on trans-Tasman, cutting about 1,000 jobs, changing some routes and adding new premium lounges in Singapore, Hong Kong and Los Angeles.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/2011/08/15/qantas-restructuring-includes-big-airbus-order/#627-1



This order is for the LCC subsidiaries of the Qantas Group - 1.  Jetstar , 2.  Jetstar Japan , and 3. a new premium airline 'somewhere in Asia.' No mention of fleet replacement or expansion of the mainline Qantas.


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Dulles_Flyer

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 14:09

CPH, do a little research and you will find that the majority of that rising  real income  in the E/SE Asia region comes from China, Singapore, and pockets throughout Malaysia and India. In just SE Asia alone, 1.3 billion (75-85%) live on less than $2 / day, and the real income that does rise is not as diverse as in N. America, Europe, Japan, etc. With that many people living on <%2 / day, how low are those LCC rates going to have to be, CPH? How many large LCCs are there in Europe? Ryanair and easyJet seem to be the two dominant carriers. Southwest is the primary LCC in N. America. LCCs have gone out of business because the demand did not exceed the supply. The same could happen here.


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CPH

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 14:21

At least 25 percent of the population in most countries in Asia (except Burma, Laos, North Korea) have an income exceeding both European and US average income, that is alone more than EU and US combined, plus the fact there is a heavier need of transporting cheap labor from one part of the region to other parts. You should see the numbers of people coming in and out of a small and very poor country like Nepal every day, it is like holiday season elsewhere.


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CPH

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 14:25

Dulles: I have lived and worked in Asia for more than 6 years, still do a lot of business there, so believe I my research and first hand knowledge is up to date when it comes to Asia!


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Dulles_Flyer

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 14:42

CPH, wikipedia is a mostly trustworthy and useful tool, especially when it is backed up with links. The only SE asian nation with a per capita GDP (PPP) higher than the US is Singapore, and they are vastly smaller and a completely urban population than even Nepal, so that comparison is irrelevant. The county I live in is larger than Singapore.

Well, I would seriously recommend that you let all these LCCs know that there is a growing need for hourly flights into/out of Nepal with all the people leaving. Yes, I agree there is a strong need for cheap SE Asian labor, I've seen it all throughout the Middle East. SE Asian labor built Dubai and Abu Dhabi, but that labor is not entirely flown in. A majority of the time they come over in mass numbers over land on bus caravans or by ship. No need to research this, because I have seen it with my own eyes. I doubt these LCCs are targeting the migrant worker population, but are instead interested in the business man or vacationer. LCCs seem to thrive on heavily traveled short/medium haul routes and for routes to alternate airports where no large airline (Thai, Malaysia, Qantas, etc) operates and less congestion is the selling point, or they charter. The same is true with Ryanair, easyJet, and Southwest.


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Dulles_Flyer

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 14:47

CPH, your original statement was that the A320 order is for Qantas, when it is for the subsidiaries, and not the  kangaroo  Qantas. Where is your source that Qantas is undergoing fleet replacement when they have clearly stated that they are looking for cost cutting. Please stay on topic.

I will take your  believe I my research  (whatever that means) with a grain of salt. If, and that is a big IF you actually do travel in Asia, I would suggest getting outside of Kuala Lumpur or any other metropolitan area fora bit. You will see two totally different worlds.


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Dulles_Flyer

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 17:06

http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20110816/pdf/420dxbfm2l4cyg.pdf

Page 19. All ac to Jetstar Group/Japan & new  premium  airline.


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CPH

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 17:28

First of all it was not my statement about the 320, it is from Airbus website!
And GDP per capita, is not a figure that tells how wealth is distributed and if so, that would even move the US further down the ranks, so my statement that there is a heavy demand for transportation by air at low cost is big, and very big compared to any western standards!


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CPH

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 17:37

By the way you forgot Brunei!


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CPH

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 17:50

And Dulles let them LCC´s do their investments, its not your money, so you can just sit and watch, if they go bust, you can say: What did I say! and opposite we dont remember your opinion anyway!


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Dulles_Flyer

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 17:55

CPH: The problem is that the article you posted was from the scairbus website, and also that you didn't read it correctly, if at all. Take a look at other message boards, as well as other articles not published in Toulouse, and you will clearly see that this has been pointed out. Even some of the most blatant scairbus sickophants on other sites are saying it was embelishment on the part of scairbus. In fact I read one comment that the scairbus presser made it sound like the ac were going to Qantas, which the report released by Qantas shows they clearly are not and everyone acknowledges that, except ........ you.

I still find it sad, yet predictable, that every time the facts jump up and bite ya', you turn the discussion to hating the west, yadda yadda yadda, it's the same thing all the time. I don't post much, but I do notice you have very little to contribute as far as substantive discussion. I want to put this to rest and pass on two websites to you, and I hope you can read it. I didn't see a translation option on them, so take your time. Print them out and read them on your next LCC flight the next time you're doing business in Asia. I say that because when it is written in black and white, you seem to overlook the facts.

http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/gnp/gnp.html

http://www.aneki.com/income_countries.html

Note that in the second link the average U.S. per capita income for an individual is $37,870, ...... but CPH, how can this be when we have thousands and thousands of millionaires and a handful of billionaires? It is becase the wealth is not held by a few like it is in countries at the bottom of that list, but is equally earned across the vast spectrum of the population. I may live in #3, but all this aside, the fact is that I and the vast majority of my fellow Americans and my Canadian brothers and sisters to the north do not look out our front windows and see anything equivalent to the slums of SE Asia. Even the poorest in the west would be well off in some of these countries. One reason we have so many foreigners trying to illegally enter the country is because they know the wealth is here.


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Dulles_Flyer

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 17:58

and opposite we dont remember your opinion anyway!

Besides translating your perversion of the English language, ......... I'm not looking for an I told you so, but when the time comes, I'll make sure you get one.


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CPH

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 18:07

Another example of national arrogance, I just recollect something same happened to some people in Italy ones, and what other languages do you at all command or comprehend? Dulles?


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jameshcm

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 18:08


Burma is a poor country, but try getting on a flight to Rangoon at short notice - you cant! Thai's double daily is packed. Cambodia is no better despite the absurdly high fares on bangkok airways. A lot of the seats in Asia are filled up by visitors to the region or people like me who live in the region, which more than compensates for the loss of the $1.00 a day brigade in rural Laos. Our nickname for bangkok airways on the chiang mai run is 'air farang' (farang being a term used in thailand to denote a western person), as they make up about 75% of the pax onboard.


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Dulles_Flyer

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 18:14

Another example of national arrogance

Can't you come up with anything new?


I just recollect something same happened to some people in Italy ones

Translation please.

and what other languages do you at all command or comprehend?

I speak, read and write English. I can also speak, read and write in other languages, too. If you're going to post on a website in English, please make every attempt to make comments that can be clearly understood. When on a foreign language website, post in the language of the website. Common sense. Translation -> make please every attempt to make that can be comments clearly understood.




Done with you. You're beginning to bore me.


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Dulles_Flyer

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 18:16

Burma is a poor country, but try getting on a flight to Rangoon at short notice - you cant! Thai's double daily is packed. Cambodia is no better despite the absurdly high fares on bangkok airways. A lot of the seats in Asia are filled up by visitors to the region or people like me who live in the region, which more than compensates for the loss of the $1.00 a day brigade in rural Laos. Our nickname for bangkok airways on the chiang mai run is 'air farang' (farang being a term used in thailand to denote a western person), as they make up about 75% of the pax onboard.



Zzzzzzzzzzzz.............


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Mabel

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 18:39

This is better than watching my wife's favourite reality show bimbos cat-fighting on telly...I need some popcorn and a beer!

In CPH's defence, although he's an anti-American left wing zealot, if we're to believe his posts he's travelled and worked all over the world for a good number of years, so he does know a thing or 2 about air travel and airline economics in Southeast Asia, Australia and other parts of the world.

At the end of the day QF will go with whatever aircraft, Boeing or Airbus, best suits their economic and performance needs. Lately the majority of their orders have been with Airbus (380, 350, 332/333 vs. 787).


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Mabel

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 18:56

I clicked Send too soon...I meant to finish the above post by saying that since lately most of QF's orders have been with Airbus it makes logical sense that they are considering the 320NEO as a replacement for their 734s and older 738s. You can rest assured that both Boeing and Airbus will fight each other HARD for the business of such a high profile customer as QF.


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CPH

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 16 Aug 19:33

Yes Mabel I got some experience from working or living in more than 75 countries, especially watching what was going on in airports all over the place, and in Asia things are so much different to the rest of the world, there you see people traveling trying to make money elsewhere, and we are talking millions of people and not holiday makers, so I see lots of opportunities for Asian LCCs.


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Skid Kid

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 17 Aug 23:13

This has been very interesting to follow and I think you are all done now. Finally. Dulles_Flyer: There is no sense in even trying to reason with CPH he always seems pissed off about something, God knows what or why, and I truly believe he thinks all Americans are just dumb hicks. I kaint spick de englush so well. Well, I actually do speak other than English, German and Pashto, but cannot write Pashto and have lived in France and Australia. I've been around the world and I prefer America. I guess that makes me arrogant, but most people I'm inclined to think feel the same for their home country.


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Dulles_Flyer

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 17 Aug 23:22

Skid Kid,

There is no sense in even trying to reason with CPH he always seems pissed off about something

Yeah, I know, but it's like poking your brother or sister when you're younger, then when they try to fight back, you give 'em five across the eyes. Almost too easy.

He understand us not well that makes absurd knows he nothing about he makes.


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jameshcm

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 17 Aug 7:29



Oh awake again!

thai media reporting this morning that Jetstar japan will start with just 3 aircraft but have 2 dozen by 2015.

Now you know!


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jameshcm

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 17 Aug 7:37

If you dont know asia, dont talk about it. Tony Fernandes didnt get where he is today by looking at wikipedia. And contrary to some belief not everyone lives in a slum or a mansion in SE Asia. Theres one hell of an inbetween, and they can afford LCCs now and again.


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Dulles_Flyer

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 17 Aug 12:41

jameshcm: that whole side discussion is essentially irrelevant, and went down that road once facts about cph's original post were presented and and he was boxed into a corner and had no ground to stand on. He still did not and will probably still refuse to answer my question. It's his typical MO. Nobody ever quoted wikipedia as a credible source, but the factual links to what is said there are credible.


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FLX

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 17 Aug 14:46

This must hv been i of the most exciting and <dyanmic> discussion/thread I hv read in mths on this forum. My name was even mentioned earlier in this discussion even though I hv never participated in/read this topic until now. Well, since I hv been involuntarily involved, I thought I might as well add-in my own bits here anyway.

1st of all, by following the drift/lead of folks here on the apparent need to throw around their credentials about knowledge/familiarity in the commercial aviation+econ+cultural stuff about the Asia-Pcf region, here is my version: I was born+raised in this region before I became a teenager and my enthusiasm in aviation probably started a bit earlier than most folks<e.g. I could already tell the diff between L1011 vs DC10 or 707 vs DC8 when I was only 7yrs old>. Since my U-grad<Major in Transportation & Logistics and focus was Air Transport Mgmt> in Canada, I hv returned to live+work in the region for 18yrs and is currently based in HKG. Aside fm the less frequent longer-haul trips to Europe<Including Russia>+N.America<Including Hawaii+Caribbean>, my career+vacations frequently took me to places across Asia-Pcf fm Delhi to Guam west to east, fm Harbin<N.East China/Manchuria> to Melbourne north to south and quite a few towns, big or small, in between.......so I guess I'm probably qualify to share a few observations<Hopefully they'll sound rational+sensible for U guys> about the airline<e.g. QF>, the latest industry development<e.g. LCC growth> and the econ trend of my home region with U. Now with all that out of the way, letz begin.

1. <CPH: Qantas switches to 320Neos>
I think title of this topic was poorly chosen, imprecise and can be very misleading. Probably should not blame CPH since I suspect English is not his 1st language/mother tongue and the related Airbus statement is itself misleading<For obvious PR reasons...> which caused CPH to fall into its PR <trap>.

In a nutshell, it was the QF GROUP that is placing the 320+320Neo order for 4 of its current+future subsidaries/brands:
JetStar, JetStar Asia, JetStar Japan<a JV with JL+Mitsubishi> and a yet unnamed new premium carrier based in Asia.

Alan Joyce<CEO of QF Group> did not mentioned/implied anything about QF<Qantas Airways>, a brand of the QF Group, <switches to 320Neos> in the related order annoucement. It's possible and we can speculate but as of today, such plan isn't a fact.

JetStar+JetStar Asia hv always operated the 320 family EXCLUSIVELY since their birth in 03+04. Technically, we can say they're <switching> fm 320 to 320Neo but there're no <switches> involved in terms of manufacturer<i.e. Boeing to Airbus> nor aircraft family. 320Neo is a logical fleet variant progression for JetStar+JetStar Asia....would be weird and possibly quite costly<e.g. Crew re-training> if Alan Joyce ordered 737NG or 737RE for them instead.

JetStar Japan+the new unnamed premium carrier don't even exist yet and obviously hv not operated any types before so how can there be <switches> fm a current type?

2. <Lisa: So Boeing is losing more and more...>
Actually, Lisa U're right. Any narrowbody order gained by Airbus is an order lost for Boeing. This is especially true regarding JetStar Japan+the new unnamed premium carrier where they've no existing type flying so there's no fleet commonality to speak of. Even @ the Group parents level, fleet commonality can be achieved equally with 320<JetStar> or 737NG<Both QF and JL hv large 737NG fleets> families....yet 320+320Neos are still choosen.

3. <CPH: And postpones delivery of its last six A380s by five to six years.>
<Dulles Flyer: Does not sound like Qantas is interested or sees any economic advantage to further fleet expansion beyond the remaining 738's and 787s at this time>
It's no secret QF has been in trouble<Greatly increased competition on its traditional goldmine Trans-Pcf routes and Virgin AU ditching the LCC model for full-service head-on rivalry with QF domestic> for the past few yrs. As a result, Alan Joyce has just completed a thorough strategic review of the entire QF Group a wk ago. In a nutshell<And if U read between the lines of Alan>, the new growth strategy calls for the QF Group to rely much less on QF and much more on various JetStar brands+the new unnamed premium carrier in Asia.....getting ultra-expensive 388s into the QF fleet no longer needs to be done in a hurry<Alan is right, who else has plan to fly 388 nonstop on the golden route between the U.S. and AU beside QF?>

4.<Dulles_Flyer: Qantas has virtually no competition on domestic routes aside from Virgin Australia, which has a comparable fleet (737s & 738s) to the Qantas domestic network>
Virgin AU has becoming a very serious threat to QF Domestic lately. For a long time since the demise of Ansett, QF Domesic had a monopoly on the Corp biz/premium sector where all the fat profits are. Virgin AU is now directly challenging QF Domestic by remodeling itself into a full-sevice<e.g. Better C/J inflight products than QF> domestic network carrier...though some say it really is aiming to become a hybrid carrier fighting QF @ the hi-end without retreating fm the war with JetStar @ the low-end. AU isn't a very big domestic mkt<Less population than Texas> and 2 full-service carriers can only mean very intense competition.

Aside fm 737NGs, Virgin AU operates 332 while QF operates 332+763ER on Domestic trunks. JetStar and Tiger AU are pure 320 family operators for AU domestic.

5. <CPH: Who and what animal is on the tail, I dont know>
Well, may be U should know. QF Group does not equal to <Qantas>. As of today, it has 6 carrier subsidaries/brands: Qantas Airways<With the largest fleet in the group and the 1 with an animal on the tail>, JetStar, JetStar Int'l, JetStar Asia, JetStar Japan<Coming soon> and a yet unnamed premium carrier based in Asia<Coming soon>. The Group operates and hv outstanding orders for both 737NG and 320 families. QF Group has been using a dual-source<i.e. Airbus+Boeing> narrowbody fleet strategy since 2000 and I suspect this is a trend among network airlines<e.g. AA, SK, GA> that will continue.

7.<Dulles_Flyer: Ryanair and easyJet seem to be the two dominant carriers. Southwest is the primary LCC in N. America. LCCs have gone out of business because the demand did not exceed the supply. The same could happen here.>
If FR and Easy are the 2 dominant players in Europe<Actually, I suspect Norwegian+AirBerlin can be considered as dominant players as well>, JetBlue and WestJet must be counted along with WN as the primary LCCs in N.America. Many weaker LCCs hv gone out of biz due to supply outstripping demand in Europe+N.America and the same could happen in Asia-Pcf. However, that won't happen for a very very long time since this region, despite huge orders placed by LCCs based here, is still a largerly untapped mkt overall.

8.<CPH: At least 25 percent of the population in most countries in Asia (except Burma, Laos, North Korea) have an income exceeding both European and US average income>
That in essence encompasses the key message about the LCC mkt potential of this region: Even if just a tiny portion of the population here matches western avg income and can afford LCC fare today, that already translate into a potential total mkt size similar to the U.S. or EU mkt simply because overall population is much much greater than the U.S./EU.....and this % of population that matches avg western income is bound to rise quickly in the near future. I read fm Economist last wk that China's total GDP is projected to match/surpass the U.S. by 2020 AT THE LATEST.

9.<Mabel: Lately, the majority of their orders have been with Airbus (380, 350, 332/333 vs. 787)>
No, no and only partially true re QF Group.
380: 1st 12units were ordered 11yrs ago
350: Never ordered........unless Mabel hv some insider info about an imminent upcoming order.
332/333: Totally 30units ordered so far since around 2001 and all done in small order batches. The recent orders are mainly temporary stop-gap for 787 delivery delay. In contrast, QF Group has commitments for 115 units of 787 in just 2 order batches @ 1 point<Now stands @ 50firm+50option/purchase right>.

http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn/au/publicaffairs/details?ArticleID=2010/jul10/4096


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Dulles_Flyer

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 17 Aug 16:50

If FR and Easy are the 2 dominant players in Europe<Actually, I suspect Norwegian+AirBerlin can be considered as dominant players as well>, JetBlue and WestJet must be counted along with WN as the primary LCCs in N.America.

FLX: Yeah, I waffled on this a bit when I wrote it, because although WN and JetBlue are the primary NA (US) LCCs, their route structure is where they diverge. WN focuses on the domestic connections only, while JetBlue has branched out in recent years from focusing mainly on the East Coast out of Boston, NYC, S. FLA, and IAD (with their W. Coast hubs/focus cities in Oakland and LGB) and is now a power player in the Caribbean, and I recall a while back rumors they were considering going long haul international (but I have not heard anything recently). You are right about WestJet, but I was focusing on the lower 48 part of NA.

Good call on Norwegian Air Shuttle. I can't believe I forgot about them.

Is Air Berlin still considered an LCC? I realize they are an all coach cabin just as WN and JetBlue are, but to me they do not seem to act like an LCC, especially since acquiring LTU intl. routes. At what point does an airline cross the line from being an LCC to more than that?


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Dulles_Flyer

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 17 Aug 16:55

For a long time since the demise of Ansett, QF Domesic had a monopoly on the Corp biz/premium sector where all the fat profits are.


Ahh, Ansett. Sad to see those planes no longer flying. Flew them from Brisbane to Townsville back in August '94. Good times.


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Mabel

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 17 Aug 18:42

I think it's debatable whether WN can even be considered an LCC anymore. WN's fares are almost always the same as the legacy carriers, and the legacy carriers have reduced their inflight products on domestic flights (in economy class) to WN's level and reduced their customer service in all areas to well below WN's level. On routes where WN competes with other LCCs such as FL (for now), F9, G4 or NK, WN is almost never the least expensive option. Last time I flew G4 from BLI-LAX the one-way fare worked out to be a good $40 less than WN from SEA-LAX, even with a few ancillary fees that I paid tacked on. I personally think WN should now be regarded as a ''legacy'' carrier since they've been around for 4 decades now and they're the 2nd or 3rd largest domestic airline in the country.

FLX, I could have sworn QF ordered the 358/9 at one point...did they place an order and then cancel?


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CPH

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 17 Aug 19:39

Mabel: I think it also goes for Europe, the LCC model is the de facto standard on intra-euro flights, I can hardly tell the difference between Easy, LH, BA, KL, Norwegian, and both so called LCCs are selling combined tickets now, the only hard core LCC model left I think, is Ryanair.


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FLX

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 18 Aug 8:10

Mabel:
Out of curiosity, can U cite where hv U read news/info about QF Group ordering 350? I'm aware that it has sent RFI<Request For Info> for 350 to Airbus about 4-5yrs ago but then again, QF Group, like most other majors, always sent RFIs to Airbus and Boeing for continuous fleet evaluation whenever any new type/variant becomes available. However, I follow QF Group's fleet development quite closely since the 90s and understand that its RFI for 350 has never materialized/progressed into firm order nor even just MoU as of today. QF did that before to Boeing re 77L when it wanted an ultra-longhual type to do SYD-LHR/JFK nonstop. Despite the fact that QF was 1 of the few airline members that work in the original 777 development team, it never ordered any 777 fm Boeing<All other airline members did>. Most importantly, QF Group did not committed to its enormous 787 order until AFTER the 350XWB program was launched.....it was clearly in a position to compare the 2 offerings before placing its bets.

CPH:
I totally agree. In the shorthaul mkt<i.e. 4hrs or less sectors> within Europe and N.America ever since the downturn after 911, there has been a steady convergence of the 2 primary biz models: Traditional Network/Legacy model and LCC model. Diff in avg fares and fare structures<i.e. ancillary/optional charges> between Network/Legacy and LCC are now blurred. IMHO, the only remaining differentiators between them, in most cases but not all, are:
1. Availability of a longhaul/intercon network that connect easily with the shorthaul network fm a pax perspective.
2. Affiliation with global alliances and their associated network+FFP benefits.
3. Customer service level in times of flight contingency<e.g. delay, cancellations, missed-connections, etc.>
4. The degree of unionization+labor costs rigidity.
5. Airport op costs/local incentives<e.g. Berlin is possibly a cheaper op base than FRA or MUC and no LCC dares to base in LHR>


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Skid Kid

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 19 Aug 1:34

FLX: I have to disagree on #3


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FLX

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 19 Aug 9:11

Skid Kid:
Read again. I said <in most cases but not all>.

When U hv a delay/cancellation with most LCCs for whatever causes, the answer U get fm them are typically just<We're sorry for your bad luck, nex please>. They take no responsibility of pax for flight disruptions due to any reasons<Including lack of pax for a flight which makes it uneconomical to op> and such clause is clearly stated under the terms & conditions on their e-tickets. If flying with Network/Legacy carriers, most will @ least try to re-accomodate/compensate U somehow.

Of course, there're always a few superb LCCs in the world that do take care of pax and a few bad apples among Network/Legacy carriers that don't during flight disruptions. However, both are minorities in general.


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Skid Kid

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 20 Aug 23:58

I still disagree. SWA/JBU/VRD all have been very accomodating to me when they have screwed up. Conversely, AWE could care less once they have your money. I have never flown NKS, but from what I hear they aren't very nice so I can't speak about them.


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FLX

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 20 Aug 18:14

Skid Kid:
So are U saying LCCs GENERALLY provide higher customer service level than Network/Legacy carriers in any mkts worldwide?

Southwest, JetBlue and VirginAm are among the best LCCs out there even by worldwide std but they work mostly just within N.America. U disagreed mostly because U hv not seen nor experienced how other LEADING LCCs in other parts of the world compare with their Network/Legacy counterparts.

N.America mkt does not equal to the world mkt.


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Skid Kid

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  Topic: Qantas switches to 320Neos - Sent 21 Aug 2:34

I disagree within US domestic parameters. The other non-American LCC I have flown are RYR and EIN(if they can still be considered that), and have been accomodated on a later flight, not thrown to the wind and don't  tough shit  or anything like that.I'm not saying that they provide HIGHER customer service, but are on par with the competition.


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