|
   |
Inicio >> Foro >> Why is AF-KLM taking over Alitalia and not Iberia? Foro sobre la aviación civil
Why is AF-KLM taking over Alitalia and not Iberia?
Volver al index del foro - Enviar un mensaje en este tema
| |
Mensaje de KLMno1 - Enviado el 20 Mar 20:14 |
|
| |
I find it very ironic that AF-KLM wants to take over Alitalia now, since KLM tried to merge with Alitalia in the 90's. We all know how successful that tie-up was. So I wonder why are they trying to do it again and why not go for Iberia?
In my opinion Iberia makes a lot more sense to take over. It is a lot healthier and has a huge presence in Latin and South America.
And what strength does Alitalia have? All I can think of are weakenesses. It has an ageing fleet of MD-82s that need to be replaced, it hasn't made a profit in years, it has a ill-motivated workforce that is more on strike than actually work and they have a hub at Milan Malpensa which isn't as successful as they all had hoped for. I only foresee problems when they will take over Alitalia.
Would it be more difficult to merge or take over Iberia because it is in the oneworld alliance?
Anyway, I'd say forget Alitalia and go for Iberia!
|
|
Perfil del usuario
|
Mensaje privado
|
Sugerir supresión
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
Mensaje de SJR - Enviado el 22 Mar 23:44 |
|
| |
Personally the only reason they might have gone for Alitalia is because it will be cheaper to buy than Iberia and maybe also because it has some fleet commonality with both Air France and KLM although having said that so does Iberia for that matter. Personally i think that the Alitalia brand can be salvaged but it will take some serious work to achieve and as you say why not buy out Iberia they have more strengths than Alitalia and i can now see Lufthansa taking Iberia out of the market. Who the next victim in this battle of the European titans will be i dont yet know but i suspect British Airways has made the worst decision of all time by not buying out its Oneworld partner Iberia and i think it will come back to haunt them. Would also like to see BA and EI become one airline.
|
|
Perfil del usuario
|
Mensaje privado
|
Sugerir supresión
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
Mensaje de captain bill - Enviado el 22 Mar 10:54 |
|
| |
BA and EI will never become one airline but I do believe they will become closer working partners than before or even now so watch this space.
KL/AF would loved to have gotten their hands on IB but IB directors were holding out for more say and voting rights on the board than AZ board were. Board room decisions are important and must have the full backing of all directors to be successful and what KL/AF want to do with IB went against the convictions of the directors who would retain their seats. It is still a good venture for KL/AF/AZ and I think it will work out well for them.
LH/IB would be a further good move if it secures the future of IB which is one of Europe's highly respected airlines so again time will tell.
Back to BA. They would rather put money into intercontinental airlines Air NZ and others and will continue to look for further opportunities in this market but also they do like the idea of Eastern European carriers and we have already seen some interest there. The FlyBE set up is also good for BA having got rid of certain types of aircraft that don't fit in with the larger types in the fleet and given up some routes that again were paying their way but not giving the return BA needed to sustain them. With their financial interest in FlyBE and allowing them to get on with it BA do nicely financially from FlyBE as they have done with Loganair who in October will join forces with FlyBE.
|
|
Perfil del usuario
|
Mensaje privado
|
Sugerir supresión
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
Mensaje de KLMno1 - Enviado el 22 Mar 19:44 |
|
| |
So, AF-KLM won't go after Iberia and by the looks of it right now they probably won't take over Alitalia with unions not supportive and a new government which probably won't support it either (Berlusconi will probably be prime-minister). What is actually the motive behind the taking over Alitalia or Iberia. They already are the largest airline in the world in terms of revenue. What were they planning to do with Iberia? Are they planning to divert traffic to Paris to make it the largest airport in Europe or even the world?
Are there any other possible candidates in Europe to be taken over by AF - KLM? Will they go for carriers in Eastern Europe? Maybe CSA, already a Skyteam member...
What will BA be doing with regard to Iberia, they did raise their stake from 10% to 13,5%.
And Lufthansa, I thought they were also interested in Austrian Airlines.
And what will happen with the carriers in the USA? I really would like to see NWA and DL merge, that would create an enourmous airline. But if they merge what will happen to Continental Airlines also a member of Skyteam?
|
|
Perfil del usuario
|
Mensaje privado
|
Sugerir supresión
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
Mensaje de FLX - Enviado el 26 Mar 9:11 |
|
| |
We should not forget so conveniently that it was the Italian gov't who initiated the whole AZ bidding thing. Bidders like AF/KL, among others(Including non-airline investors), were invited to buy AZ so that it won't continue to suck substantial funds fm the country before its eventual bankrupcy everyone knows will come.
It was(I think still is) a rescue mission and since AZ is so heavily in debt, the gov't is willing to sell it for next to nothing as long as most jobs are saved and the brand continue to exists.
It's a completely diff story @ IB. It's profitable and its stock is actually worth something in the open financial mkt.
By now, everyone on earth expects the short-mid term U.S. economic outlook(i.e. Reason for more/less pax to fly) is gonna be bad. Also, oil price(i.e. Not controlled by airlines yet determine most of their profitability) is not gonna come down anytime soon. Finally, don't forget nearly all U.S. majors(Including NW+DL) hv just emerged fm Chapter11 around 2yrs ago. In a sense, many are still nursing their earlier financial injuries. For these reasons, I don't know who in Wallstreet will be brave enough to even suggest any major U.S. carriers to go through M&A now(KLMno1, if U're an investment banker, U're the only one I know who suggest it).
|
|
Perfil del usuario
|
Mensaje privado
|
Sugerir supresión
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
Mensaje de KLMno1 - Enviado el 26 Mar 20:20 |
|
| |
I am not an investment banker, thank God! But wouldn't it be easier for a merged NWA - DL to operate more effeciently? Isn't that the point of merging, saving money in the long run? They could start buying planes together, order spare parts together, they could use each others maintenance facilities, they could cut some more jobs, etc.
Okay at this moment this may not be a good solution indeed since they both came out of Chapter 11 and are still recovering, but just the sheer size of this merged airline would be enormous and that is what I would love to see.
I know that they already are huge airlines and that will only complicate matters, but it worked for AF - KLM so why shouldn't it work for US mega carriers? They have to do something in order to get costs down.
|
|
Perfil del usuario
|
Mensaje privado
|
Sugerir supresión
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
Mensaje de FLX - Enviado el 27 Mar 9:45 |
|
| |
KLMno1:
M&A is an extremely costly exercise. Yes, bigger scale after merger will save $ in the long-run further down the road, at least in theory(Statistically, most M&A are considered failures 2-3yrs down the road, famous e.g. Daimler-Chrysler, Air NZ+Ansett, BAe civilian unit pulled out of Airbus a few yrs after Airbus SAS is created, etc.). However, there'll be a lot of up-front costs. Aside fm greedy bankers+lawyers charging the airlines enormous fees in the process, one time costs/investments in system/fleet/people alignment are all biggies. NW and DL can afford these costs fm their own pockets if they're rich but they're relatively poor today. They can't really issue & sell new stocks to investors to finance the process since a) Their stocks still worth nex to nothing after Ch11 and b) Bad time to sell ANY stocks(Let alone airline stocks) on wallstreet now and may be for a long while. In contrast, AF-KLM picked the right time to do it back then and AF could rely on gov't(Not an option for any U.S. carriers) to help borrowing at least some M&A charges.
In theory, I agree NW+DL can be a good combo. As a matter of fact, the same goes for most U.S. majors. Int'l wise, DL has always been strong in Europe and NW is the biggest in the Pcf for over 60yrs so there're only few, if any, mkt duplication. Domestically, their network also complement each other. It's just that for now, nobody can afford M&A's short-term pain(i.e. upfront costs) in exchange for long-term gain(i.e. efficiency savings).
Search flightglobal.com to see more articles on U.S. major M&A combos.
|
|
Perfil del usuario
|
Mensaje privado
|
Sugerir supresión
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
Mensaje de KLMno1 - Enviado el 27 Mar 19:08 |
|
| |
Thanks FLX. Okay, so this is not the right time for mergers or take overs in the US. So why are they even considiring? Are they being too optimistic?
But lets say that the time is right now and NW and DL merge and UAL and COA too, what will American do? Will it take over or merge with US Airways?
Or is it possible that US majors will look beyond their borders, like AF/KL? Or are mergers like AF/KL only possible in the EU?
|
|
Perfil del usuario
|
Mensaje privado
|
Sugerir supresión
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
Mensaje de captain bill - Enviado el 28 Mar 8:42 |
|
| |
If we look back over the last twenty years or so particularly in the USA a number of airlines and some real big ones went pop (Eastern, Braniff to mention two) and the jitters started to go through the airline industry around the world. Many believed that M&A was the way forward but has it really worked ?? I just wonder.
One of the big European mergers was B.O.A.C. and B.E.A. and this WAS MADE TO WORK because both were nationalised companies and the UK government pumped millions into it to make it work. If this had not happened and both were put straight into private hands they would not have been around today.
So I always in M&A discussions ask the question WHY ?. Why do you want to merge why do you want to acquire ? The answer is never because we want to get larger or because we could work well together but it is 99% of the time for survival.
Therefore one or almost always both parties in the merger are in financial difficulties and they see this as the only way of survival. I'm not so sure and I say this from years of experience in the industry as both a player and an observer.
I believe KL/AF will work as both are the national country carrier and are still to a great extent run as two individual companies with individual identities but a merger by NW and DL I have my doubts about and this is only a gut feeling based upon no information received. It would create a large yes mega airline and history has taught us that big is not only best.
You will forgive me for this one but if I were consulted on this I would be recommending to KL/AF that the next move they make would be NORTHWEST and DELTA should be looking also to Europe for a bed mate. You see I still think the AA/BA deal will at sometime go ahead never becoming one but just like as in a marriage two individuals with separate identities becoming as one.
This means that AF/KL/NW could then look for further acquisitions in other parts of the world (India, Fae East, Australasia) and by this method create a strong global entity.
One of my other comments as a consultant to airlines is DOWN SIZE but most will not consider this as to them it is a sign of defeat. Most carriers have routes that have less than 40% load factors and if they are unable to provide smaller aircraft for these routes due to the cost being greater to replace than remove then yes the need to down size by getting rid of these non profit making routes.
So what has all this to do with AF/KL taking over AZ Well I don't know but I have enjoyed expressing an opinion and if you have done thanks for reading it and having a laugh.
|
|
Perfil del usuario
|
Mensaje privado
|
Sugerir supresión
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
Mensaje de KLMno1 - Enviado el 28 Mar 12:12 |
|
| |
captain bill, I appreciate all reactions to me thread. I certainly enjoyed reading it. So we will just have to wait and see what will happen in the US with the possible merger of NW/DL and any other actions that will be triggered by that merger.
BA/AA, will that ever happen? I don't know. I thought they were going to be too dominant over the Atlantic. In order to gain anti-trust immunity wouldn't they have to give up too much? I know that was case in previous attempts for immunity. I do think it has become easier for them to attempt to tie up, since AF/KL also is a pretty big player in the atlantic and for that matter so is Lufthansa.
I do think that Skyteam and oneworld should be looking for more partners in order to catch up with Star Alliance. Do you think that the alliances as we know them today will become one big global airline in the future? So we would be flying Star Airlines or Oneworld Airlines or Skyteam Airways?
|
|
Perfil del usuario
|
Mensaje privado
|
Sugerir supresión
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
Mensaje de SJR - Enviado el 29 Mar 23:00 |
|
| |
Personally i would hate to see NW and DL merge because i like the Northwest livery a lot and have not seen it too much whereas i hate the DL liveries rite since the old Widget colours. The new one is a an improvement on the last two but it could use a bit more coloured paint.
|
|
Perfil del usuario
|
Mensaje privado
|
Sugerir supresión
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
Mensaje de FLX - Enviado el 31 Mar 13:25 |
|
| |
SJR:
Read captain bill's comment re how AF/KL operates today in which I totally agree. It's entirely possible(In fact, very likely) that if ever there's a merged NW+DL, both will retain a lot of their existing stuff(Save costs?) includng 2 separate livery design on their fleets. Of course, they'll also most likely develop a completely new smaller logo containing design elements fm both airlines and stick it on every NW/DL fuselage(Similar to the <NW/KL Worldwide Reliability> logo).
captain bill, KLMno1:
Do U guys remember the <AA/BA NO WAY> logo on the tail of VS or UA(Sorry, not sure which carrier) jets in LHR during their 1st M&A attempt? I don't know if AA+BA will be possible but if the issue turn-up again, I bet we'll see intensive gov't lobbying+PR(Both Pro and Against) to happen just like before. Trying my creativity, the following scenarios, although nearly impossible, may make a BA+AA combo easier to become reality:
1. AA surrender at least 50% of all their landing slots+gates @ their JFK, ORD and DFW(AA practically owns this huge airport) hubs and @ LHR.
2. BA surrender at least 50% of all their landing slots+gates @ LHR
3. For unknown reason, Sir Branson decided to fold-up VS completely and let BA+AA owns LHR in exchange for 99yrs exclusive rights to Virgin Galactic in ALL earth-to-space tourist flights.
|
|
Perfil del usuario
|
Mensaje privado
|
Sugerir supresión
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
Mensaje de KLMno1 - Enviado el 31 Mar 18:04 |
|
| |
AA/BA no way, I believe that was Virgin. The problem with BA/AA would be their dominance at LHR. But I think with the new open skies between US and EU their dominance might not be such a problem. I am not sure though how it all works with slots.
I don't think they will give up more than 50% of those slots, because that would be too much. I guess they will have to be patient and wait until another European carrier (like AF/KL) will try to take a stake in DL/NW (we all know they could use the cash). If this all will happen remains to be seen, but I guess that would make things easier for BA/AA...
About DL livery... I liked the livery they had when they were still flying the Tri-Stars, what they were thinking after that I don't know. I have lost track of all of the colourschemes they have had since then... The one I disliked the most was the one that resembled the Aeroflot colourscheme. Think about the money they must have spent on all those liveries.
|
|
Perfil del usuario
|
Mensaje privado
|
Sugerir supresión
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
Mensaje de captain bill - Enviado el 31 Mar 20:22 |
|
| |
As KLMno1 says it was Virgin that had the NO slogan painted on their aircraft and spent a fortune lobbying MPs and others to raise the issue in Parliament and did all sorts of TV/Radio interviews to let the Nation know how bad BA/AA would be and also made great play on the dominance issue to the European Parliament and so the deal didn't go through but BA/AA have still got and in all fairness due the the Virgin groups pressure a much stronger working relationship than before it all started.
|
|
Perfil del usuario
|
Mensaje privado
|
Sugerir supresión
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
Mensaje de FLX - Enviado el 01 Apr 8:27 |
|
| |
Sorry for going a bit off topic but since captain bill mentioned about the stronger working relationship between BA and AA over the last decade, I can't help but noticed that OW(Oneworld) member airlines seem to be a bit more closely integrated/coordinated with each other than ST(Skyteam) or *A(StarAlliance). This is based entirely on my personal observations when flying/booking with airlines fm these 3 alliances. I'm not talking about just FFP benefits but also in codesharing, schedule coordination, joint-sales distribution, cross-selling, etc., things that rely heavily on an alliance-wide common IT platform. Aside fm BA/AA, I see the same depth in the partnerships of JL/AA, CX/AA, QF/JL, QF/BA, etc.
When airlines work that closely together in an alliance, they may already be enjoying many cost benefits as if they went through M&A. Of course, airlines will also get more savings fm a real M&A(e.g. total salary+stock option for 1 CEO instead of 2 CEOs running 2 airlines).....
|
|
Perfil del usuario
|
Mensaje privado
|
Sugerir supresión
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
Mensaje de captain bill - Enviado el 01 Apr 15:35 |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Enviar un mensaje en este tema
|
|
Los mensajes deben ser escritos en Inglés . Los mensajes escritos en otro idioma serán borrados.
Enviar sólo los mensajes relacionados con la aviación civil, y no introduzca ningún anuncio. Your IP se guarda en el registro.
Usted puede costumbre su texto utilizando los siguientes códigos
[B] Tu texto [/B]: El texto en negrita
[I] Tu texto [/I]: El texto en cursiva
[U] Su texto [/U]: Texto subrayar
[S] Su texto [/S]: Texto striketough
Para incluir un Airfleets.net foto, usa el código [P] Foto número [/P] |
|